I have been writing a lot of pop/hip hop beats lately, and have certainly been having more trouble with the former. I seem to have a pretty good time making ideas come across, etc, and coming up with melodies and rhythms, however, I find it's difficult to stop myself from adding too many layers, etc. Not that I like the music, but if you listen to some older britney spears stuff, everything is SO boring, yet so clean without the vocal, as if the vocal HAS to be there... I don't think this is true of a lot of what I make. The vocal always completes the song, but the other layers are not as backing as I would like them to be. Do any experienced producers have advice on the subject? It seems to me there is a certain "feel" that all pop karaoke songs have that just beg the melody to be sung, but this is not so present in hip hop beats, which can stand alone without the rap much better. Any advice on how to make an instrumental beg the lead more? How to create the space so you can "tell" there needs to be a vocal there? I don't know much about theory, but I know a lot about digital music production, so any help or links would be appreciated!
Although I use EQ to "carve" a space for the vocal to sit in, and try to leave a range free, there is still something different! Any thoughts?
how to limit your instrumental for pop music?
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- KVRist
- 131 posts since 18 Aug, 2003 from Denver
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- KVRAF
- 1643 posts since 18 Mar, 2004 from Lincoln, CA
This is something you need to think about during the composition stage. You should look into composition concepts like voice leading, so that when you write harmonies that accompany your main vocal melody, your vocal melody is doing the leading.
I don't necessarily think pop songs that sound very sparse without vocals is "better." For example, some of the best Japanese Pop have very sophisticated and lush arrangements that sound beautiful on their own, but they don't overcrowd the vocals either. It's all about your ability to figure out how to make your composition/arrangement work both horizontally and vertically together.
I don't necessarily think pop songs that sound very sparse without vocals is "better." For example, some of the best Japanese Pop have very sophisticated and lush arrangements that sound beautiful on their own, but they don't overcrowd the vocals either. It's all about your ability to figure out how to make your composition/arrangement work both horizontally and vertically together.
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blackboyrockinit blackboyrockinit https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=182229
- Banned
- 433 posts since 5 Jun, 2008
Most beats, when pitched to a vocalist before vocals are put in, are built around the vocalist when they get into the studio. The main meat and potatoes of the song is recorded, but arrangements like verse chorus bridge and breakdowns are added later at the studio, 9/10 times.
A lot of today's modern pop hits are pitched with instrumentals plus hooks, so that the producers already knows what it's going to sound like.
Remeber that most songs start off as a "scratch track" that is later edited and mixed and changed and arranged.
Not to say that people dont make complete songs, but you dont need to, because it always changes when working with a vocalist in the studio.
That being said, everyone has their own style and are free to work anyway they damn well please as long as they make great music.
I would say for your own benifit concentrate your energies in getting good grooves going, but keep it short and sweet and dont over tweak a song cuase not only does the song get stale, so will your imagination.
Added mutes, and delays and mixing tricks will change your song.
Fully mixed pop songs on the radio are mixed with the vocals in mind, if the mix engineer did a song with no vocals, the mix and editing would be different.
It is not uncommon for the producer or studio to replace your drum hits, delete kicks, add snare hits, add extreme delays, mutes, and whatever mixing tricks to get the hit done. Just listen to how Butch Vig transformed Nirvana from bleach into Nevermind. Or how the difference between Weezer's blue album and the Japan album. (which he also mixed)
A lot of today's modern pop hits are pitched with instrumentals plus hooks, so that the producers already knows what it's going to sound like.
Remeber that most songs start off as a "scratch track" that is later edited and mixed and changed and arranged.
Not to say that people dont make complete songs, but you dont need to, because it always changes when working with a vocalist in the studio.
That being said, everyone has their own style and are free to work anyway they damn well please as long as they make great music.
I would say for your own benifit concentrate your energies in getting good grooves going, but keep it short and sweet and dont over tweak a song cuase not only does the song get stale, so will your imagination.
Added mutes, and delays and mixing tricks will change your song.
Fully mixed pop songs on the radio are mixed with the vocals in mind, if the mix engineer did a song with no vocals, the mix and editing would be different.
It is not uncommon for the producer or studio to replace your drum hits, delete kicks, add snare hits, add extreme delays, mutes, and whatever mixing tricks to get the hit done. Just listen to how Butch Vig transformed Nirvana from bleach into Nevermind. Or how the difference between Weezer's blue album and the Japan album. (which he also mixed)
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- KVRAF
- 4692 posts since 28 Jan, 2003 from In these very interwebs
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blackboyrockinit blackboyrockinit https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=182229
- Banned
- 433 posts since 5 Jun, 2008
If your vocalist already has a song, then ofcourse, build your beat around their song. same smell different nostril.
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- KVRAF
- 7825 posts since 20 Jan, 2008
There are two schools of thought.
The majority of song writing comes from chord progressions.
The treatment of the progession leads to the melody.
The secondary method is that the melody is created then harmonized to.
It is alot easier to write a chord progression then apply a melody over the progression then it is to create a melody and apply harmonic justification.
Either way once the harmonic and rythmic structure is defined it's much easier to write supportive parts.
Re: jpop
I couldn't agree more. Jpop has the sophistication that the west abandoned too many years ago.
The majority of song writing comes from chord progressions.
The treatment of the progession leads to the melody.
The secondary method is that the melody is created then harmonized to.
It is alot easier to write a chord progression then apply a melody over the progression then it is to create a melody and apply harmonic justification.
Either way once the harmonic and rythmic structure is defined it's much easier to write supportive parts.
Re: jpop
I couldn't agree more. Jpop has the sophistication that the west abandoned too many years ago.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 131 posts since 18 Aug, 2003 from Denver
wow, thanks for the great replies, they are really useful, and helping me not fret so much! Thanks kim for those links, I remember reading them before, but it's nice to look over them again! You guys are always so helpful!!!
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- KVRist
- 80 posts since 3 Jun, 2008 from Argentina
I don't know if this is the kind of answer that you're looking for but... you may try to think about it, 1 as the fact that you can't survive with out lyrics and vocals, so, you music cannot be more that a melody leader, your chords, your rythim, your breaks make sense with the lyrics and melody and not above them. In the other side you got the complex idea of a chorus as a resume of the song, the most emotive part, the most "memorial" part. So it must be simple in the sense that it has to be recorded in people's memory... at least it has to be clear. So you may try to lead your layering and complication to end up in a music idea that resume their felling, try to make the other parts of the song and arregements as pieces that only make sense with the chorus. Hope this help you..