Scales and Chords Question

[mcetinsoy]

Hello guys.

I have some very basic questions as i have recently decided to explore the music theory a little more.

First question is when you choose a scale, the chords you'll use must contain only the notes from that scale, right?

Another question will be when writing a melody over a bassline or on a small harmony going in background, there are times things don't sound good. How is it defined in the theory. How these situations are worked out.

Also i am having some difficulties working on melodic minors. The ascending,descending thing confuses me for sure but sometimes even if i am not descending (going down on the notes if that's right?) a chord i play in the descending notes scale sounds right. I mean how this asc.-desc. affects chords. How is the chord progression done while in melodic minor? I mean which notes do we choose from in order to keep thing in tune?

Thank you so much.

[icelizarrd]

First question is when you choose a scale, the chords you'll use must contain only the notes from that scale, right?

Not really. Confining chord notes to your chosen scale is one way to make chords, but it's definitely not the only way, and in fact it often gets kind of boring. There are all kinds of variations you can use which go outside the basic scale (key) you're in, including the use of secondary dominants, borrowed chords, altered notes on extended tertian chords, altered notes just for color (e.g. using an augmented fifth on a dominant seventh chord just to increase the tension).

Maybe a better way to say it is that most of the chords an average mainstream-oriented songwriter uses will contain only notes from the key the song is in. But classical and jazz music is filled with notes that go beyond basic scales, and even a decent amount of pop and rock do this too. Scales shouldn't be a limitation, but a convenient way to make chords if you haven't had a lot of experience, or if you don't want to sound adventurous.

Another question will be when writing a melody over a bassline or on a small harmony going in background, there are times things don't sound good. How is it defined in the theory. How these situations are worked out.

Well, that depends, since "doesn't sound good" depends on your own personal preferences and the sound you're going for. Often, however, this occurs when there is a dissonant interval between the melody and the supporting harmony. There are certain intervals that are generally considered "dissonant" (major and minor second, tritone, major and minor seventh), and intervals that are generally considered "consonant" (major and minor third, major and minor sixth, perfect fourth, fifth and octave).

To generalize horribly, a melody will feel like it clashes with a harmony when it forms a dissonant interval on the same downbeat of that harmony (or when you hear too many dissonant intervals in a row). Usually you can "get away" with having dissonant intervals on the upbeats as long as they're surrounded by consonant intervals. You also can have dissonant intervals on downbeats, but often they need to be in a certain context to sound right.

(Quick note: things get more complicated when everything is syncopated, and when "dissonant" notes become part of the color, as is common in jazz. Also, a lot of us write electronic music here, which often involves just sitting on one chord for extended periods of time--and this can create a sort of "pedal tone" effect where the feeling of what's considered dissonant changes. But moving on...)

Also i am having some difficulties working on melodic minors. The ascending,descending thing confuses me for sure but sometimes even if i am not descending (going down on the notes if that's right?) a chord i play in the descending notes scale sounds right. I mean how this asc.-desc. affects chords. How is the chord progression done while in melodic minor? I mean which notes do we choose from in order to keep thing in tune?

Well, whichever sounds better to you. You're allowed to use "descending melodic minor" even when you're ascending; and you're allowed to use "ascending melodic minor" even when you're descending. The reason they're called that is because that's the way they're most often used, but they don't need to be used that way, and you can find counterexamples that illustrate this even in Bach.

Basically, as for what notes to choose, again the rule is "whatever sounds good." But, more formally, use the appropriate scale that matches whatever chord you're currently on.

So, if you're currently playing a major V chord (which includes a raised seventh), then you will probably want to use ascending melodic minor. If you're playing a minor V chord (which uses a lowered seventh), you should probably use descending melodic minor. If you're playing a bVII (which starts on a lowered seventh), then use a descending melodic minor. Etc.

[k-bird]

First question is when you choose a scale, the chords you'll use must contain only the notes from that scale, right?

Mainly those notes, but not always. I'll flesh out more of what icelizarrd said...

Say if you're in C. The dominant scale of C is G and the subdominant scale is F. The difference between C and G is instead of F, G has F sharp - F doesn't have B, it has B flat. The parallel (not relative) minor scale of C is C minor, and that contains D flat, B flat and A flat. By my score, the only note you're missing from that collection is C sharp.

A lot of the time, when you're bringing notes in from other scales, there's little chord melodies at play. For instance, going from C to a secondary dominant chord A7 then to D minor, you get a C - C sharp - D melody. It's the same with F to D7 to G.

Another question will be when writing a melody over a bassline or on a small harmony going in background, there are times things don't sound good. How is it defined in the theory. How these situations are worked out.

If it doesn't sound good, it might be that the two notes played in unison form a dissonant or otherwise undesirable interval. If you're going to start getting into theory, it's pretty vital to train up on which intervals are which because they're basic even to chords. If it means playing them out on an instrument for half an hour every day in a month to get a strong sense of them, it's worth it.

[lukejay]

the last 2 posts have been very good so i'll only add this:

you don really need to know what modes/scales yr putting onto a tonic/ jus think miles davis...altho i think he DID know know his theory

all i can suggest is play/compose as much as you can and only then will things make sense/things sound bad

[tonAP]

you don really need to know what modes/scales yr putting onto a tonic/ jus think miles davis

Just don't get it: what do you mean by this??

[mcetinsoy]

@icelizzard, luke and k-bird: Men, thank you so much for the valuable info. That was wonderful, really. Things start to get clearer. This will get me to do some more practice and i quiet get that even trying to figure out the systematic approach, ear judging and unorthodox approaches will result in better coloration for the sounds i am after.

Thank you for taking your time, really.

You guys have a nice day.

[Bobbotov]

Dissonance can be softened by voicing. Voicing is how the notes of the chord are spread across octaves and in which order. If an interval of notes is only a half tone apart they sound dissonant but if the interval is spread across an octave then the dissonance is diminished. For example, if you have a c-major triad with a d flat (flat second) added it will sound dissonant. If instead you make the d flat a flatted ninth then it sounds much better. Spreading the voicing out opens up the chord to allow for more interesting tonalities.

On the other hand, Bill Evans did something called "crush chords" where he intentionally had dissonant notes in his chords to create tension. It really is a matter of taste and experience. In Bill Evans case he was a master at chord resolution so passing tones that would sound dissonant by themselves when used in progressions resolved beautifully.

A famous but slightly cliche jazz/blues chord is to add a sharp 9 to a C7 chord (i.e. c-e-g-bflat + dsharp) written as c7#9. Essentially this is a major/minor chord spread across an octave.

For a great resource check out this site:

http://www.apassion4jazz.net/keys.html

[lukejay]

you don really need to know what modes/scales yr putting onto a tonic/ jus think miles davis

Just don't get it: what do you mean by this??

apologies...i'm still not sure what i mean by that statement....

[tonAP]

apologies...i'm still not sure what i mean by that statement....

Nice one Luke!

[tonAP]

The parallel (not relative) minor scale of C is C minor, and that contains D flat, B flat and A flat.

Why D flat? Shouldn't Cminor scale be:
C, D, E flat, F, G, A flat, B flat.(?)
________________________
Edit:
I'm pretty sure you did a typo's mistake (things happen):
Although the Cminor parallel isn't necessarily the natural (aeolian) one i wrote above: it could be the melodic or the harmonic too; notwithstanding it couln't be a D flat (hence the 'typo' deduction).

The rest of your post was very clear and agreeable.

=======================
Edit2
Wait a moment:
It could still be a C-Phrygian (!?) that would be:
C, D flat, E flat, F, G, A flat, B flat.
If it was what you meant, then my apologies: but i never thought the parallel minor as a phrygian!

[icelizarrd]

Typically when anyone says "the parallel minor" they will mean natural minor (with the possibility of switching to melodic or harmonic minor as necessary/desired). I don't think it's wise to call C Phrygian the parallel minor of C major for that reason, to avoid confusion.

So I think k-bird must have typo'd, although I don't want to speak for him/her.

[nuffink]

Dissonance can be softened by voicing. Voicing is how the notes of the chord are spread across octaves and in which order. If an interval of notes is only a half tone apart they sound dissonant but if the interval is spread across an octave then the dissonance is diminished. For example, if you have a c-major triad with a d flat (flat second) added it will sound dissonant. If instead you make the d flat a flatted ninth then it sounds much better. Spreading the voicing out opens up the chord to allow for more interesting tonalities.

On the other hand, Bill Evans did something called "crush chords" where he intentionally had dissonant notes in his chords to create tension. It really is a matter of taste and experience. In Bill Evans case he was a master at chord resolution so passing tones that would sound dissonant by themselves when used in progressions resolved beautifully.

A famous but slightly cliche jazz/blues chord is to add a sharp 9 to a C7 chord (i.e. c-e-g-bflat + dsharp) written as c7#9. Essentially this is a major/minor chord spread across an octave.

For a great resource check out this site:

http://www.apassion4jazz.net/keys.html

For most people the minor 9th interval will sound at least as dissonant as the minor second. The minor 9th has been called the last remaining dissonant interval.

If you want a more consonant voicing of the minor second you could drop the Db an octave where it will form a (relatively more consonant) major 7th with the C.

[Bobbotov]

True, but that gives an odd root note for a C chord. To my ears a C7 chord with Dflat an octave below does not sound quite as good as a C7 with the Dflat an octave above the C root (which is the same as a Gdim/C). In either case both can resolve to Fm7 nicely I think.

I think this just points out the subjectiveness of dissonance.