Im looking for some ideas on far east and middle east keys and scales
heres a demo of what im looking for
http://www.soundsonline.com/Quantum-Lea ... W-163.html
listen to sarcophagus and dreaming in chinese
any tips on some scales to try out?
Far east flute and plucked scales?
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- KVRist
- 96 posts since 15 Jun, 2007 from wisconsin
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- KVRian
- 1329 posts since 25 Dec, 2005 from Devon, England
For Middle Eastern sounds I'd lean towards:
Phrygian: e.g. E, F, G, A, B, C, D, E
Phrygian Dominant: e.g. E, F, G#, A, B, C, D, E
Mebbe add the odd #7th (e.g. D# in my examples in E) to taste. Experiment over a drone.
The Chinese example sounded *to me* to be mainly pentatonic minor but there's lots of embellishment like grace notes and microtonal bends going on (same as for Arabic music). My best advice would be to find some music in this genre and play along to try and catch the nuances. An easy-to-find example for Arabic would be Natacha Atlas and her vocal gymnastics.
Edit: 'course I'm being very simplistic here. The microtonal (i.e. notes "between" the twelve notes of our chromatic scale) thing is important in a huge amount of non-Western music, but the most important thing in most music is the rhythm. There's a lot of google-able stuff about Middle-East rhythms on t'internet. Find some tutorial sites with MIDI files - it'll help a lot (even if rhythm seems a little off-topic in a thread about scales!).
I don't know squat about Chinese music I'm afraid so hopefully somebody else will be along soon to help there.
Phrygian: e.g. E, F, G, A, B, C, D, E
Phrygian Dominant: e.g. E, F, G#, A, B, C, D, E
Mebbe add the odd #7th (e.g. D# in my examples in E) to taste. Experiment over a drone.
The Chinese example sounded *to me* to be mainly pentatonic minor but there's lots of embellishment like grace notes and microtonal bends going on (same as for Arabic music). My best advice would be to find some music in this genre and play along to try and catch the nuances. An easy-to-find example for Arabic would be Natacha Atlas and her vocal gymnastics.
Edit: 'course I'm being very simplistic here. The microtonal (i.e. notes "between" the twelve notes of our chromatic scale) thing is important in a huge amount of non-Western music, but the most important thing in most music is the rhythm. There's a lot of google-able stuff about Middle-East rhythms on t'internet. Find some tutorial sites with MIDI files - it'll help a lot (even if rhythm seems a little off-topic in a thread about scales!).
I don't know squat about Chinese music I'm afraid so hopefully somebody else will be along soon to help there.
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- KVRian
- 943 posts since 15 Mar, 2005
for mysterious eastern type stuff, i also like the phrygian dominant jonnyG mentions, and i use it with the D#.
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- KVRer
- 17 posts since 5 Jul, 2007 from Melb
This scale sounds very Middle Eastern, I think its called Double Harmonic Major.
The last four notes are the same as the Harmonic Minor scale which also has a bit of a Middle Eastern feel to it.
In D: (apologies about the spelling of the scale)
D, Eb, F#, G, A, Bb, C#, D
Another way to look at it.
root, m2, M3, P4, P5, m6, M7, octave.
Check out http://www.geocities.com/scaleopia/
The last four notes are the same as the Harmonic Minor scale which also has a bit of a Middle Eastern feel to it.
In D: (apologies about the spelling of the scale)
D, Eb, F#, G, A, Bb, C#, D
Another way to look at it.
root, m2, M3, P4, P5, m6, M7, octave.
Check out http://www.geocities.com/scaleopia/
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- KVRian
- 943 posts since 15 Mar, 2005
i fnid the easiest way to remember these scale patterns in any key, is to just play 2 parallel major chords, one a semitone above the other, that gives you the first 6 notes of the scale, for the 7th note just play the note below the root.
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- KVRist
- 43 posts since 11 Nov, 2007 from Auckland, New Zealand
Hey, thesecession, what instruments are you using? the Quantum Leap? As far as the samples and what's already been noted, dreaming in Chinese sounds like a pentatonic scale and the other like Phrygian to me.
I play a Turkish stringed instrument but like to use similar scales with Zebra 2, so I'd definitely recommend an synth or other instrument capable of playing in tunings other than 12-EDO (12-TET).
Phrygian is good. It's pretty much the same as what's called Kurdi makam in the Turkish system.
BUT, The minor second is a bit flat of the regular Western minor second. What jonnyG calls Phrygian Dominant is called Hicaz in Turkish or Hijaz in the Arabic system (both pronounced Heejahz). With Hicaz, I definitely recommend tuning your scale such that your minor second is about 23 cents SHARP of a regular minor second (a very different minor second than true Phrygian or Kurdi). The major third is FLATTED by a comma (again, about 23 cents). There is intense debate among theorists as to exact intonation depending on who you talk to and what makam is being debated. Also performance practice does not follow theory exactly.
But, that's my 2 cents as far as making Mid-East scales. I'd even recommend when playing in the Chinese pentatonic mode that you tune your synth in some form of just intonation (by preferably simple ratios or their cents adjustment equivalent deviation from standard Western 12-EDO. Good Luck!
I play a Turkish stringed instrument but like to use similar scales with Zebra 2, so I'd definitely recommend an synth or other instrument capable of playing in tunings other than 12-EDO (12-TET).
Phrygian is good. It's pretty much the same as what's called Kurdi makam in the Turkish system.
BUT, The minor second is a bit flat of the regular Western minor second. What jonnyG calls Phrygian Dominant is called Hicaz in Turkish or Hijaz in the Arabic system (both pronounced Heejahz). With Hicaz, I definitely recommend tuning your scale such that your minor second is about 23 cents SHARP of a regular minor second (a very different minor second than true Phrygian or Kurdi). The major third is FLATTED by a comma (again, about 23 cents). There is intense debate among theorists as to exact intonation depending on who you talk to and what makam is being debated. Also performance practice does not follow theory exactly.
But, that's my 2 cents as far as making Mid-East scales. I'd even recommend when playing in the Chinese pentatonic mode that you tune your synth in some form of just intonation (by preferably simple ratios or their cents adjustment equivalent deviation from standard Western 12-EDO. Good Luck!
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- KVRAF
- 10286 posts since 17 Sep, 2004 from Austin, TX
If you're really, really serious about versimilitude, use Fractal Tune Smithy to relay midi through MidiOx so you can choose one of the thousand microtonal scales/temperaments in Scala, the .tun files of which FTS supports.
I got to remember to write a new tutorial for this now that I've finally bought the full version of FTS.
I got to remember to write a new tutorial for this now that I've finally bought the full version of FTS.
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- KVRist
- 43 posts since 11 Nov, 2007 from Auckland, New Zealand
Good idea runagate. There is also LMSO X if you're on a mac (www.nonoctave.com). I use it to write .tun files for Zebra 2. It will also write tuning files in a host of other formats and also tune synths realtime via midi pitch bend on discrete midi channels. I highly recommend it. Also, with Scala, most people don't mention the fact that that large library of tunings that comes with it all have their root note as "C." You'd have to use Scala (or FTS(?)) to change the root note (I hardly ever use C as my tonic as my primary stringed instrument is tuned DAD or AEA).