Instrumentation

[yonyz]

I will first read about composing, and then I will move on to the Garritan orchestra guide.

[jancivil]

I read about String quartet at Wikipedia, and the writer shows the form:

"The main form for the string quartet was set out by Haydn:

* 1st movement: Sonata Form, Allegro, in the tonic key;
* 2nd movement: Slow, in the subdominant key;
* 3rd movement: Minuet and Trio, in the tonic key;
* 4th movement: Sonata-Rondo form, in the tonic key."

I've read about Tonic and such terms, but I still don't understand it.

What is a tonic key?
After knowing the tonic key, how can I find the subdominant?
What is Minuet and Trio, and Sonata-Rondo?

Thank you very much for your help so far.

I don't know that you will benefit so much from concern about these older forms, unless you really really dig 'em that much. Later on, it can be very useful to look at it, when you get to longer pieces of music, you might want to conceive things in this architectural sort of way.

Tonic, is Home key. In classical music of India, it's called ground. (they have a whole sacred thing about it, and they don't stray from it. SHADJA. Sa. Which is truly complete when it all comes together, the time @ ONE, SOM or SUM, and SA, in the end.) In Western classical, you go to other places like the dominant or subdominant 'key', with the idea in mind you come home, to I. Subdominant is 'IV', Dominant is 'V'.

These numbers are derived from a scale called the diatonic scale. Count: 1; there are two 2s, minor (a semitone up from 1) & major, a full tone up from 1; two 3s, proceed by semitone (US: half step) to these minor and major 3rds, then a 'perfect fourth'. Here is your Subdominant degree. A triad, a structure built by thirds, which means you skip, a third is two tones or a tone + a semitone, can be built on any degree, eg., the 'IV chord', subdominant chord. Here you get into quality of your triads, major, minor, diminished, augmented, which refers to the quality of the third of the chord. EG: C E G, C major. The tonic chord of the key OF C major. C to E, two whole tones (in Greek theory this interval which is based on acoustics, Pythagoras looked at vibrating strings, they called a ditone), is a Major 3rd. C Eb G has a minor 3rd, C>Eb, a tone + a semitone.

The thing to do is find out about scales, and see how that translates to chords. Western music likes to build chords on seven scale degrees, by thirds. All of this is explained thoroughly by people in this particular forum.

Orchestration is coloring your harmonies, and respacing (voicing) things to get the most out of them. So looking at chords - harmonies - might be the most useful sort of start.

[yonyz]

What are 2nds and 3rds?

[jancivil]

a 2nd is one letter name of a note to the next.

A to B, will always be called a 2nd, no matter what 'accidental' is appended to the letter.

A to Bb is a half-step or semitone interval. In 12-tone equal temperament, it is equivalent to A#. But! A to A# isn't a second, because it isn't spelled as a 2nd. (A to the A# 13 semitones higher is called an augmented* octave, owing to the fact that an octave., eg., A2 to A3, in 12-e.t. is 12 semitones.)

A to B is a whole-step or tone. Two semitones, count 'em.

Thirds:

A to C, A# to C#, et al, are thirds. these examples, count 'em, consist of three semitones. or, a tone + a semitone. This = a MINOR THIRD, which I believe I did show you above.

Major, minor and perfect are your basic qualities of interval in diatonic music. Only octaves, fourths, and fifths can be 'perfect'. You 'diminish' a perfect or minor interval. *You augment a major or perfect interval.

From what I've given you, you really can suss it out if you are willing to do your own research. The information, virtually all of it, is right here in the Music Theory forum.

Good luck.

[yonyz]

How do you know that it's a minor and not a major 3rd?

[geroyannis]

Composition, instrumentation, arranging, orchestration, or whatever, is not what you need to study. What you need to do is get any theory & harmony book and study the basics of music (rhythm, intervals, chords, scales, etc.)

Then come here and ask again.

[jancivil]

How do you know that it's a minor and not a major 3rd?

oh for jebus sake

C E G, C major. The tonic chord of the key OF C major. C to E, two whole tones

A to C, A# to C#, et al, are thirds. these examples, count 'em, consist of three semitones. or, a tone + a semitone. This = a MINOR THIRD

[Sascha Franck]

yonyz, I'm sorry in case this will sound sort of discouraging, but if you really want to kinda compose for anything orchestral (or at least plan to move into that direction), before you care about composition and instrumentation, you should try to get a hang of some minimal music theory. Something such as knowing intervals, scales and chord types related to them, but also what chords might be used when, etc. Then you may perhaps procede to some lessons about how to, say, harmonize a simple melody. The latter basically is what a lot of orchestral writing is all about - ok, there's TONS of details and techniques more, but these are the steps that should help you the most.
You don't even need an orchestral library for that stuff, any piano sound will perfectly do.

Just as a very simple example: If you don't know how to possibly arrange the notes of a C major chord with a supposed E as the top note, you'll defenitely have a tough time dealing with all the other things (especially such as something discussed at the Northernsounds forum). Or if you don't know the shortest movement from one chord to another, using inversions.

All this is fundamental knowledge when it comes to writing for an orchestra. Ok, you may have one or the other lucky moment without it, but in general, better don't expect things to come easy.

[yonyz]

I've read anything on MusicTheory.net a few days ago, but
after the chords, it has all become very hard to understand.

The Complete Idiot's Guide to Music Theory book looks promising,
I think I will buy it, unless you guys have a better suggestion.

[Sascha Franck]

I've read anything on MusicTheory.net a few days ago, but
after the chords, it has all become very hard to understand.

See, it's NOT only about reading. I can read all I want about how to build a car myself. I can even buy all the tools and whatever it takes. I still won't be able to even remotely build a car myself, not at all aven.
You gotta practise that stuff - have you done so already? Have you played, recorded and edited your little pieces of I-IV-V progressions? Sorry, but from what it reads like, it doesn't seem so to be so, as you didn't even know what a tonic chord, a major/minor third and so on was.
Also, did you actually understand what you must've read about intervals and the likes?

See, I'm really not trying to put you down at all. In addition, if any questions arise, you can always ask at this place, even at KVR there's a lot of people knowing about such things.
But what you *will* have to do for yourself is to start with the basics. Once you learn about how a chord is constructed, you gotta play it to know what, say, chord inversions are all about. Once you learn that I-IV-V (and some derivatives) is like the most popular/common chord progression ever, you gotta play, record and/or edit it to actually *experience" what it's like to deal with these things, what they sound like, what it "feels" and whatever.
There's quite some things that no reading will ever give you. Experience is what it's all about.
The main "ingredients" of musical theory really aren't all that tough to learn. Mathematic stuff being teached to 10-12 year olds can be a lot harder, just to put things a bit into perspective.
But you will have to go through a certain amount of experience. Right now!
Can you instantly play (and probably analyze) a progression such as Eb-Ab-Bb? Can you instantly say what a major sixth for a G# would be and play it? Can you instantly name the notes of a Db major scale? Can you instantly figure out what a II-V-I progression in D major would look like? In case the answer to those questions (that you actually shouldn't answer but ask to yourself) is "no", it's time to start practising, not just reading.

I admire anybody wanting to learn about these things, but you should be aware that all this won't work in case you don't actually practise things.
And yes, you could probably buy a book or two. I can't tell you which ones would be good. Head over to your public library (or even a book store) and take a free afternoon to see which ones make you say "ah, that's what it's like" after a few minutes of reading the first chapters. IMO all these books are full of flaws in terms of methodics, so the best thing is getting one or two that actually "click" with you. That's why public libraries are still a really good place to start.
Once you found something that actually does read promising, go to your keyboard (or whatever instrument) and practise what you've just learned.

[yonyz]

OK, I started reading the lessons at Musictheory.net again, and I have a question regarding ledger lines:

First, look at this picture:
http://i34.tinypic.com/ndkfva.jpg

The Treble clef means that the first A is A3, so, it means that the A on the ledger line is a A4,
I mean, one octave above the first drawn A?

[yonyz]

bump.

[Jokari]

Sure, that's exactly one octave. Soon you'll learn to recognize an octave right away as it's an interval that occurs frequently.

[KLS]

yonyz,

There is a good book on basic music theory that might help you. It is called "Writing Music for Hit Songs" by Jai Josephs. You can find it on Amazon. It starts with the basics of keys and scales and goes through constructing chords and chord progressions. It is oriented toward popular music styles and will probably better than a more academic book. This book really helped me understand some basic theory. Music theory websites can be very good, but I think you might get a better understanding of things by using a book, because a book will take you through the topic in a logical, step-by-step way. So, try this out and see if it helps you.

- Ken

[Sascha Franck]

yonyz, can you play, say, an F-Bb-C progression flawlessly already?
Really, this question might seem provocative, but before you don't manage such simple tasks, you really don't need to care about ledger lines and what not.
KLS' recommendation might be a good one (I don't know the book), too.