Ok, so about six people in this thread think I should do something similar to the KVR Mix Workshop, but for electronic drums. This thread is just to discuss some ideas about how we could do this.
To kick (har har) start this, I've got a few questions:
1) Do you want something smaller, just focussed on drums, or a larger workshop (similar to the one in progress) covering various aspects of electronic music production?
2) Are you more interested in production or composition?
3) A few people mention x0x drums (808, 909, etc). There are a wide variety of different drum and percussion conventions across the various electronic subgenres. What are people interested in? 909s? Glitch noise? Modern composite drums (how many kicks do I have to layer until...)?
4) Does anyone actually think I have anything useful to say? I've spent the last few years with my head stuck in processed samples of acoustic drums. It's been ages since I've done any serious electronic music (and even then, I wasn't very good!). I don't consider myself to be an expert in electronic drums or synths any more than the degree to which basic production techniques and principals translate across genres.
-Kim.
KVR Mix Workshop discussion - electronic drums
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- KVRAF
- 4692 posts since 28 Jan, 2003 from In these very interwebs
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- KVRAF
- 2117 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from flint, michigan
1) Primarily drums for me, but covering the whole gammut eventually would be AWESOME.
2) I'm more interested in the production/mixing aspect of it. General pointers on how/when to compress the kicks/toms, getting the shakers and hi-hats to not take off your head, how to gel the bass and kick in the mix, etc. are all welcome.
3) 909/808 for me, as that's all my DrumStation can do.
4) I think you have experienced enough to provide some really great tips on getting non-organic sounds to gel together in the mix.
We ask a lot from you Kim, and I know that there's a lot of people here who appreciate your tips when it comes to getting a great mix. Don't overdo yourself with all these lessons, though. Take some time to smell the roses as well.
2) I'm more interested in the production/mixing aspect of it. General pointers on how/when to compress the kicks/toms, getting the shakers and hi-hats to not take off your head, how to gel the bass and kick in the mix, etc. are all welcome.
3) 909/808 for me, as that's all my DrumStation can do.
4) I think you have experienced enough to provide some really great tips on getting non-organic sounds to gel together in the mix.
We ask a lot from you Kim, and I know that there's a lot of people here who appreciate your tips when it comes to getting a great mix. Don't overdo yourself with all these lessons, though. Take some time to smell the roses as well.
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- KVRian
- 965 posts since 7 Apr, 2007 from Holon, Israel
1. As pandashake said, a larger workshop would be great.
2. Focusing on composition would be great for me.
3. Hm.. 909 or 808? It doesn't really matter to me..
2. Focusing on composition would be great for me.
3. Hm.. 909 or 808? It doesn't really matter to me..
I do.Does anyone actually think I have anything useful to say?
Last edited by yonyz on Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRist
- 91 posts since 11 Mar, 2008 from Deepest darkest cornwall
1. A larger workshop would be great, though my main goal is to improve my percussion
2. Both, but primarily production
3. 808/909 and samples
4. It's good to talk so yes....
+1 pandashake....
2. Both, but primarily production
3. 808/909 and samples
4. It's good to talk so yes....
+1 pandashake....
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- KVRAF
- 5948 posts since 19 Jun, 2008 from Melbourne, Australia
Kim you are a star!!
My main focus is dance music production ... heavily biased towards psy trance, but also house, techno and anything electronic ... until I have learnt enough production skills to move on to other styles of music ... in the mean time, percussion and rhythm programming remains one of my weakest points ...
1) a narrower focus on percussion only would suit me
2) production (composition / structure of dance music is quite intuitive IMO, but percussion is so integral to the groove that perhaps it relates to my weakness above ... !!)
3) i would prefer general percussion techniques rather than focussing on kick drums only. Sampling does not interest me so much, but integration of sample loops is probably an essential tool and interesting discussion point / technique to learn ...
4) you have some of the most valuable input around this forum and I've learnt a lot from you in the short time I've been here (a few months). Your posts and knowledge stick out like a sore thumb (in a good way!!! ) ... perhaps you can use your more recent experience with acoustic drum production to highlight the similarities / differences with synthetic drum programming as you understand it ...
Whatever happens ... it will be an excellent resource for those interested ... and thanks for the offer
Peace,
Andy.
My main focus is dance music production ... heavily biased towards psy trance, but also house, techno and anything electronic ... until I have learnt enough production skills to move on to other styles of music ... in the mean time, percussion and rhythm programming remains one of my weakest points ...
1) a narrower focus on percussion only would suit me
2) production (composition / structure of dance music is quite intuitive IMO, but percussion is so integral to the groove that perhaps it relates to my weakness above ... !!)
3) i would prefer general percussion techniques rather than focussing on kick drums only. Sampling does not interest me so much, but integration of sample loops is probably an essential tool and interesting discussion point / technique to learn ...
4) you have some of the most valuable input around this forum and I've learnt a lot from you in the short time I've been here (a few months). Your posts and knowledge stick out like a sore thumb (in a good way!!!
) ... perhaps you can use your more recent experience with acoustic drum production to highlight the similarities / differences with synthetic drum programming as you understand it ...Whatever happens ... it will be an excellent resource for those interested ... and thanks for the offer
Peace,
Andy.
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Daniel LaRusso Daniel LaRusso https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=188045
- KVRer
- 7 posts since 28 Aug, 2008
1) The bigger the better IMO, but drums are always a good way to start
2) Production mainly. I would like to learn to be more efficient and confident when mixing/EQing my drums instead of a bit of guess work all the time. Would also like how to bring all of this together with effective compression techniques and develop the ability to make quality drum grooves!
3) I would have to say i would be more interested in a little more depth than basic x0x drum kits. Perhaps mixing sample kicks/hits as well as i know a lot of people who make dance music tend to go this route.
4) yeap, think you do! Anyway, there may be other people out there who can contribute to this workshop also who may chime in... People always like someone taking the initiative don't they??
2) Production mainly. I would like to learn to be more efficient and confident when mixing/EQing my drums instead of a bit of guess work all the time. Would also like how to bring all of this together with effective compression techniques and develop the ability to make quality drum grooves!
3) I would have to say i would be more interested in a little more depth than basic x0x drum kits. Perhaps mixing sample kicks/hits as well as i know a lot of people who make dance music tend to go this route.
4) yeap, think you do! Anyway, there may be other people out there who can contribute to this workshop also who may chime in... People always like someone taking the initiative don't they??
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 4692 posts since 28 Jan, 2003 from In these very interwebs
Ok, I've got some ideas.
I don't have any suitable electronic/dance songs that I can pull apart, so I don't think we can do a workshop or production diary in a similar style to what I've done before.
Instead perhaps we could focus on exploring individual production techniques. So we could set a plan with something like this:
Kick - synthesis
Kick - layering
Kick - compression
Kick - EQ
Kick - saturation
And perhaps do the same for the snare, and something similar for hats. What other drums or percussion do you want to cover? Maybe we could cover basslines as well? Obviously there would be a special session for combining the kick and the bass.
I was thinking I'd probably kick start each session with a bit of discussion about the technique and then provide some audio examples. For example, for the session on kick/compression, I'd provide examples of a kick drum processed with various useful compression settings. In the text I'd describe what the settings are, how they work (and what they do), and then they're useful (or why you'd use one over the other).
My previous production diaries were a little like inviting you to sit with me in the studio as I work. The current workshop is a little like you sitting in my chair with me giving verbal advice. I think this electronic drums thing would be like both of us sitting together, and there's no song, we're just playing around and I'm saying something like "these are all the different things we can do to a kick drum, and this is what they sound like and this is why you might want to do this in your songs."
Of course having audio examples means you could download the sounds and try to get similar results with your own tools.
What do you think? Is there anything else I should cover? Would it be useful?
Keep in mind this will probably begin after the current workshop has concluded. There's only one of me, after all.
-Kim.
I don't have any suitable electronic/dance songs that I can pull apart, so I don't think we can do a workshop or production diary in a similar style to what I've done before.
Instead perhaps we could focus on exploring individual production techniques. So we could set a plan with something like this:
Kick - synthesis
Kick - layering
Kick - compression
Kick - EQ
Kick - saturation
And perhaps do the same for the snare, and something similar for hats. What other drums or percussion do you want to cover? Maybe we could cover basslines as well? Obviously there would be a special session for combining the kick and the bass.
I was thinking I'd probably kick start each session with a bit of discussion about the technique and then provide some audio examples. For example, for the session on kick/compression, I'd provide examples of a kick drum processed with various useful compression settings. In the text I'd describe what the settings are, how they work (and what they do), and then they're useful (or why you'd use one over the other).
My previous production diaries were a little like inviting you to sit with me in the studio as I work. The current workshop is a little like you sitting in my chair with me giving verbal advice. I think this electronic drums thing would be like both of us sitting together, and there's no song, we're just playing around and I'm saying something like "these are all the different things we can do to a kick drum, and this is what they sound like and this is why you might want to do this in your songs."
Of course having audio examples means you could download the sounds and try to get similar results with your own tools.
What do you think? Is there anything else I should cover? Would it be useful?
Keep in mind this will probably begin after the current workshop has concluded. There's only one of me, after all.
-Kim.
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- KVRAF
- 1666 posts since 28 Jun, 2007 from Amazon rain forest
1) A larger workshop
2) Production
3) 909 since it's still heavily used in modern electronic music
4) Of course we want your insights!
I don't have too much to contribute, but I have enough interest in this reading.
2) Production
3) 909 since it's still heavily used in modern electronic music
4) Of course we want your insights!
I don't have too much to contribute, but I have enough interest in this reading.
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- KVRAF
- 5948 posts since 19 Jun, 2008 from Melbourne, Australia
Sounds great Kim
For "other percussion" - if there is time and you are willing - I'm very interested in learning how to process the low toms (as an example) that have a lot of low frequencies, and a nasty habit of interfering with the bassline or kick. I guess that's the magic of transient processing ... so maybe the knowledge you share on working with snares would be sufficient to get us on the right track?
Given this is going to be focussed on dance music and all dance music is really just one phat remix (there is no "song" as such except the song of life) ... assuming we cover all of the basics: kick + bassline, hats and snares i.e. enough for at least a decent section of a track, if everyone contributing to the workshop got their own "remix" going of the lessons maybe one of us could mix together the resulting tracks.
If the arrangements were kept under a few minutes and as long as we are not going from chilled to gabba style glitchcore (hmmmm, that could work too!!!!) I can certainly do that using Traktor. Obviously there will be a few factors involved like different track volumes and such, but it might be a fun thing to do ... just an idea ...
Peace,
Andy.
For "other percussion" - if there is time and you are willing - I'm very interested in learning how to process the low toms (as an example) that have a lot of low frequencies, and a nasty habit of interfering with the bassline or kick. I guess that's the magic of transient processing ... so maybe the knowledge you share on working with snares would be sufficient to get us on the right track?
Given this is going to be focussed on dance music and all dance music is really just one phat remix (there is no "song" as such except the song of life
) ... assuming we cover all of the basics: kick + bassline, hats and snares i.e. enough for at least a decent section of a track, if everyone contributing to the workshop got their own "remix" going of the lessons maybe one of us could mix together the resulting tracks.If the arrangements were kept under a few minutes and as long as we are not going from chilled to gabba style glitchcore (hmmmm, that could work too!!!!
) I can certainly do that using Traktor. Obviously there will be a few factors involved like different track volumes and such, but it might be a fun thing to do ... just an idea ...Peace,
Andy.
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- KVRAF
- 2117 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from flint, michigan
1+ to synth (pitched) toms and to getting stuff like closed hats and casaba/other shaker stuff (with similar frequency content) to fit well together.ZenPunkHippy wrote:For "other percussion" - if there is time and you are willing - I'm very interested in learning how to process the low toms (as an example)...
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Daniel LaRusso Daniel LaRusso https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=188045
- KVRer
- 7 posts since 28 Aug, 2008
Yep, i reckon covering the kick, snare and bassline would be a great start for the workshop. I do however, think it would be necessary for the drum groove to contain at least 5 parts though. (Kick, snare, shake, OHat, Closed Hat etc)
Also, would be great to get a hold of some free loops that we can gel with our created drum groove to add spice. Using sampled loops is a great technique which can add shape and character among other things quickly and easily, yet is not always the easiest to get sounding right due to clashing frequencies etc...
Also, would be great to get a hold of some free loops that we can gel with our created drum groove to add spice. Using sampled loops is a great technique which can add shape and character among other things quickly and easily, yet is not always the easiest to get sounding right due to clashing frequencies etc...
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 4692 posts since 28 Jan, 2003 from In these very interwebs
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 4692 posts since 28 Jan, 2003 from In these very interwebs
In my experience, the problem with using loops is not clashing frequencies, but clashing groove. If you're bringing in loops from different sources, or trying to match a loop to your own sequenced patterns, chances are the groove in the loop will be different to the groove you're using in your song. To fix it you have to go go into the loop, chop it up and requantise it so it fits with your other percussion patterns. Usually by the time I've done all that it's actually quicker to simply have sequenced it myself from one-shot samples.Daniel LaRusso wrote:Also, would be great to get a hold of some free loops that we can gel with our created drum groove to add spice. Using sampled loops is a great technique which can add shape and character among other things quickly and easily, yet is not always the easiest to get sounding right due to clashing frequencies etc...
-Kim.
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- KVRist
- 65 posts since 9 Apr, 2008
I'm really looking forward to this session, thanks Kim.
My interest is in the kicks and shaker type percussion, as I want to use my one-shot samples rather than the same loops I have.
J
My interest is in the kicks and shaker type percussion, as I want to use my one-shot samples rather than the same loops I have.
J