Non western music theory?

[halluci:nation]

The only books and sites I can find on music theory are about western music theory. Where would I find out about middle eastern music theory, asian music theory, and such?


Thanks.

[jancivil]

there are some books by Alain Danielou on intonation in Indian music.

http://www.alaindanielou.org/Northern-Indian-Music.html

[vurt]

hang out with some asian muso's.

[jopy]

Asian music is a little vague--you'd need to be a lot more specific to get a good answer. Indian music is not at all similar to Chinese music, which in turn has almost nothing in common with Balinese music. Throw in Japan and Iran (Persia) for good measure. I'm just mentioning the countries with very well developed traditional systems. There's no way you can learn them all, the tuning systems, instrumentation, theory, practice are all wildly different. It would be like trying to quickly become fluent in Chinese, Japanese, Hindi...you get the idea.

You probably are better off finding a good musician in one of these traditions and learning from that person. He/she will be able to recommend books from there. It's my impression that there aren't many in English though, and some of the traditions defy traditional western norms for music transcription.

I'm not saying this to discourage you, by the way.

[VicDiesel]

Arabian scales and such

Quite enlightening, though the book is somewhat expensive for what it offers.

Victor.

[jancivil]

as far as theory, Indian musicians aren't that interested in it. That music is esoterically transmitted, learnt at the foot of the master. They don't look at books, they don't read the music. You can be illiterate, even

Arabs, more so, it's traditional to talk shop about Maqam theory, and there are a LOT of intonation systems in Arab history, including somewhat recently.

(Unless you're in a small town) Go to the Public Library.

[jopy]

I don't know if it's accurate to say without qualification that Indian musicians aren't interested in theory. They have to know different tunings and melodic concepts for different times of days, they need to memorize complex rhythmic talas, and they need to learn the relationship of the rags with the Vedas. If that's not theory I'm not quite sure what is. This is all necessarily orally transmitted, but there are documents showing theoretical systems from 900 years ago and older, so it is written down as well. It's not similar to western music theory in concept or practice (it can't really be notated accurately without doing extreme violence to the underlying practices), but it's a very codified and complex system with a number of completely distinct traditions.

[jancivil]

It's not theory, it's practice. And this is my experience with it.

The older stuff (in Sanskrit) has very little, if anything any more, to do with what's done. EG: The 'ma grama', is somewhat interesting to me, but no one cares anymore, it's arcane, it's pedantry.

Yeah, I've talked to guys on the street about Tala, but if you are not walking the walk [speaking bols when you hit the drum], it's just shop talk, not a theoretical discussion.
You could get into an interesting discussion in the realm of religion when you get into the 'history' of the syllables. "relationship of the rags with the Vedas. If that's not theory I'm not quite sure what is.", it's religion. Music theory?

A guy like Danielou, who is the one to look at for the connection, parses this difference with books about the numbers versus books about the religion.

Anyway, I was contrasting it with the other area I have a passing familiarity with: Arabs like the numbers.

The 22-sruti thing, which may be 31 tones to the octave, may be 53, ad infinitum, it's useless to talk about, you hear it, you watch it, you touch the strings and make the sound.

[jopy]

I suppose I can see what you mean, I just always get this pinch in my neck when I hear generalizations about a complex cultural tradition. I also never really know how much people know a priori about Indian music. I've been listening and learning about hindustani music for quite a while and I still consider myself very poorly informed on the subject.

Still, by your definition, some people would say that there really shouldn't be such a thing as jazz theory.

Then again, they might be right, look at the explosion of cookie cutter jazz technicians playing 3rd generation overwarmed bebop derivatives that emerged after jazz theory became all the rage in the 70's and people started to learn jazz from books rather than learning from jam sessions, records, and concerts.

[jancivil]

I'm not trying to say any kind of 'should', just that this isn't a big area of interest in India, it's a western mode of thinking about it. A half-Indian might have a minute to chat about tala, a homie tends to

EG: I'm interested in the '22-srutis' on paper, because I don't own a sitar or veena.

And your remarks about jazz brings to mind Frank Zappa's line:

Jazz is not dead, it just smells funny

[jopy]

There's also a less memorable but more thorough quote from Sonny Sharrock along those lines:

There are three basic types of improvisers, the foremost being "the creator," who has an insatiable need to tell his story. For him, improvisation is only a tool. He plays each solo as if it were his last. He will not be compromised, nor will he be stopped. Next is "the juggler," for whom the skill of improvisation is just as important as is the need to tell his story. The juggler gathers around him all of the things he has heard, and one by one tosses them into the air. With his skillful hands he cleverly keeps them aloft. He seldom drops an idea, because he knows them all so well. Finally, there is "the tinkerer, whose improvisations are based on formulas and the instrument itself. His scientific manipulation of sound is laboratory-created and laboratory-bound forever. Making up a subcategory, if you will, is "the fool." He claims he is bored with music, so he has decided to make noise. Fool + Noise = Bullshit.

I have now effectively moved this discussion completely off topic from the question of Asian music. Sorry about that.

[Winstontaneous]

...and back on topic.

One thing most non-Western musics (including Middle Eastern and Indian) have in common is the use of pure intervals (in just intonation, derived from natural overtones of the harmonic series) against a drone.

For exploring this sonic world the best book I have found is WA Mathieu's "Harmonic Experience".

http://www.amazon.com/Harmonic-Experien ... 0892815604

The first part of the book has you singing pure intervals against a drone. Using just a five limit-system (the first five partials of the harmonic series) you explore a rich world, learning to hear and accurately sing about 20 intervals beyond the 12 equally tempered Western notes. The rest of the book works towards reconciling the practices of just intonation and equal temperament.

This is not the work of an armchair scholar. Mathieu studied with North Indian vocal master Pandit Pran Nath for 25 years and at all times focuses on the importance of being able to hear and produce beat-free intervals vocally.

As Mathieu writes, "the rules of music--including counterpoint and harmony--were not formed in our brains but in the resonance chambers of our bodies."

[Sauhaq]

I have learned quite a bit on arabic theory (and maqams) from this place:

http://www.maqamworld.com

Has most of the maqams/jinns mapped out and explains the modulation and quarter tones in depth with plenty of audio examples (But in .rm format. )

Hope it helps.

[jancivil]

I have learned quite a bit on arabic theory (and maqams) from this place:

http://www.maqamworld.com

Has most of the maqams/jinns mapped out and explains the modulation and quarter tones in depth with plenty of audio examples (But in .rm format. )

Hope it helps.

thank you for that!

[Caysi]

I found a wiki entry quite a while ago for Japanese scales, not exactly a huge amount of detail IIRC but it was quite useful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yo_scale
not the one I was looking for, but it's one of the scales used.