Avoid clash notes when composing

[ecsmix]

Hi guys,

First of all I am not a musician, just trying to learn theory reading this forum and some books and been very helpfull to me, thanks.
I was wondering when composing a song with bassline, lead, pads.
When some notes/chords are placed on the same place. ex: bass a piano and a string.
on the key of C major = C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C.

Ex: On the piano i am playing Em, to sound good the bass notes has to have the Em notes(to play at the same time or not)?
What's more, the strings can I play any chord from the scale on top of the Em that will sound ok, or there some good tecninques to sound better?
Usually I just play the same chord in diferent octaves but I was wondering what's more could I use?
Using notes/chords from the scale clashing is avoided all the time, even putting chords on top of chords?
crazy idea:
ex: Em7 chord E, G, B, D, on the piano G,B,D and on the bass(real bass not left hand on piano I play E will sound good because become an Em7 chord or if it is played by diferent instruments it doesn't matter?

[Download SOphist]

you'll get much better and lengthier replies, but accidents (i suppose that's what you're talking about) are the thing that keeps music from being boring, or at least monotonous.
For example 1, in the key of Em you could try fooling around with the blues scale (the most basic of examples, that would be, IIRC, E,G,A,A#,B and D).
2 if you'll play another chord on top of Em, you'll get an extended chord (like E,G,B,D,F#: go check it out).
3 i don't understand very well, but modulations (goin from one key to another) often means using notes from other scales (a common example would be a chord like G,B,F,G# going to CM, in the key of C)

Hope this hints to anything you were asking.

Keep learning and enjoying!
Cheers!

[nuffink]

It's been said that there's only one dissonant interval left - the minor 2nd/minor 9th. This might be pushing it a bit but...
A note which forms this interval with any of the chord notes is considered an "avoid note". So let's take your Em7 chord E, G, B, D. The avoid notes are F, Ab, C, Eb.
Now, "avoid" doesn't actually mean don't play. The general rules are - Don't hold an avoid note against the chord. Don't play an avoid note in a metrically strong position*.
You'll notice that if you play an avoid note in the bass (e.g. F below E) it forms a major 7th and not a minor 2nd. This is a more consonant interval, and is one reason for chords being played in inversion.
The other reasonably dissonant interval is the tritone (6 semitones). Chords which feature a tritone (typically dominant (7) chords and diminished/half-diminished chords) are reckoned to accommodate the avoid notes easier than other chords as their inherent soft dissonance masks the harsh dissonance of the minor 2nd/minor 9th.

* Assuming 4/4 the following beats in the bar are in descending order of metrical strength - 1,3,2,4 followed by the off beats.

[ecsmix]

Guys I really appreciate the answers but I think is a little advanced for me.
So you are saying that eventhough is diferent instrumnets they do form a chord when played together, like a synth bass and a piano, just like the example I made.

[nuffink]

Guys I really appreciate the answers but I think is a little advanced for me.
So you are saying that eventhough is diferent instrumnets they do form a chord when played together, like a synth bass and a piano, just like the example I made.

Absolutely.

[ecsmix]

awesome!!!

So bass with another chord playing is easy to come upo with something good, what about chords on top of chords again with diferent instruments...strings and piano...

Em on top of Gm will sound good not wrong because belong to the same scale right?
But what would be your tecnincs to do something diferent, play diferent scales,modes but same key?
Thanks.

[someone called simon]

?
crazy idea:
ex: Em7 chord E, G, B, D, on the piano G,B,D and on the bass(real bass not left hand on piano I play E will sound good because become an Em7 chord or if it is played by diferent instruments it doesn't matter?

I think you are saying the Em7 chord here is made by the piano playing GBD, and the bass playing an E? if so, that is quite normal. in music played by bands or electronic music or whatever, its common for the piano or other chordal instrument to 'stay out of the way' of the bass instrument. so the piano or guitar might only play a few notes, none of which has to be the root note of the chord, and leave that up to the bass instrument part. If 2 instruments play slightly different bass notes/rhythms, it can turn into a muddy mess.

In your example of the C scale, play a simple C triad (CEG), then try adding the other notes of the scale, each note by itself or in combinations. play them in a higher position than the triad. An A will give a certain character, a D will sound quite nice, a B also. Add a D & B together over your C triad and it will be quiet complex but pleasant. If you play an F, it will tend to clash with the E of the triad*. But if you drop your triad's E down to D while you play it, it will sound good, but will want to 'resolve'... so you start building progressions... move that D note back up to E, and move your F note up to G, still playing the C and G notes of your original chord. so you have 2 chords CDGF moving to CEGG (in both cases there the last note is played in the octave above the other notes.

Is this of any benefit?

*"how to disappear completely" by Radiohead off Kid A does this, (its actually in D, but we'll imagine it in C to keep it easy) when the string line comes in later, its on a high F while the chord is C... the theorist in my head hears this and complains about it. But I've learned to shut him in a soundproofed room when the situation calls for it.
I'm just listening to that song now, and it is an exercise in what strange notes you can get away with. It starts with a very quiet string line on a G#, over a C chord moving to an E minor chord. This is quite a nasty clash on both chords. And the bass part is playing a repeating run over the C chord that features every note of the scale except F and C. it plays a B G A D E G A D, repeating over both chords. Quite crazy really for what appears to be a quite simple song initially.

[ecsmix]

If you play an F, it will tend to clash with the E of the triad*. But if you drop your triad's E down to D while you play it, it will sound good, but will want to 'resolve'... so you start building progressions... move that D note back up to E, and move your F note up to G, still playing the C and G notes of your original chord. so you have 2 chords CDGF moving to CEGG (in both cases there the last note is played in the octave above the other notes.

That's one of my questions as well, how do I know which notes with clash with another, like F with E, why that happens, what's the theory behind it where can I study it to know what do I have to avoid?

[Jafo]

Notes that are in the chord, are consonant and sound nice. However, they're sonic oatmeal -- good for you, great for a steady diet, but boring! Spice it up with some dissonance: throw in seconds and sevenths and chromatic notes for some spice.

[Jafo]

Quick & dirty guide to consonance. Notes that are at a major or minor third, major or minor sixth, perfect fourth or perfect fifth from each other, are pretty much consonant. Oh, and octaves, too. Major seconds and minor sevenths are more dissonant, but satisfying. The augmented fourth/diminished fifth, the minor second, and the major seventh are even dissonant, but colorful.

[Jafo]

To be more precise, it goes to a note's harmonic series and how the notes relate thereby.

Each note vibrates at its own frequency, but also at other frequencies that are integer multiples of that frequency -- 1x, 2x, 3x, 4x, 5x, 6x, and so forth. These are called harmonics, and each instrument has them in differing strengths. Even when they aren't there, our ears want to hear them; it's worth noting that drums have weird multipliers, and thus don't really sound pitched. (Also, Hammond organ tonebars let you directly specify the strength of each harmonic.)

The neat thing is that most of those harmonics are different notes than the original. If you start with A (= 440), you get:

1x: 440 Hz = A
2x: 880 Hz = A
3x: 1320 Hz = E
4x: 1760 Hz = A
5x: 2200 Hz = C#

Since an octave is defined as a doubling or halving, we can rearrange this to A, C#, E -- which is precisely an A Major chord. If you go on further, you get all the notes of the A Major scale: A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G# (actually, it's sort of between G and G#). All of those notes work pleasingly against an A. Other notes will give you more tension.

Another interesting fact is that for whatever reason (maybe wave interference?), our ears prefer simpler ratios: 2:1 (octave), 3:2 (perfect fifth), and so forth. You can get all crazy about it, and make charts like this if you like:

unison: 1/1
minor second: 10/9
major second: 9/8
minor third: 6/5
major third: 5/4
perfect fourth: 4/3
tritone: 45/32
perfect fifth: 3/2
minor sixth: 5/3
minor seventh: 9/5
major seventh: 15/8
octave: 2/1

but you don't need to. (Besides, the math works out weirdly; the Es derived from C and A are different frequencies. Look up the "Pythagorean Comma" sometime.)

Major triad: 1 - 5/4 - 3/2
Minor triad: 1 - 6/5 - 3/2

[Jafo]

All that said, if it sounds right to you, it *is* right -- and don't let anybody tell you otherwise.

[someone called simon]

If you play an F, it will tend to clash with the E of the triad*. But if you drop your triad's E down to D while you play it, it will sound good, but will want to 'resolve'... so you start building progressions... move that D note back up to E, and move your F note up to G, still playing the C and G notes of your original chord. so you have 2 chords CDGF moving to CEGG (in both cases there the last note is played in the octave above the other notes.

That's one of my questions as well, how do I know which notes with clash with another, like F with E, why that happens, what's the theory behind it where can I study it to know what do I have to avoid?

notes tend to clash when they are a semitone apart. but its not a hard and fast rule. I dont know if you play guitar, but you can play an Am7 chord by fretting the 3rd and 4th strings at the fifth fret. strum the whole lot (preferably avoiding the bottom E but thats a matter of taste). it sounds good. But just play the second and third strings, one is a C note, the other a D. they dont sound good together without the others supporting them.

Now, when you move the notes further apart and play them in isolation, they can sound nasty too. play a B note, and a C note an octave & a semitone higher... its quite nasty (you can harmonize it with other notes to make it sound good, but it will be a chord that resolves somewhere else, probably to an E minor... play this chord, notes low to high, starting with a B about an octave below middle C: B-A-Eb-C, it will lead you directly to E-B-G-B, or similar, and will sound good in context. (not in the context of good 4 part harmonizing if anyone wants to critique that, just chords that sound good)

I dont know why it is so, its just the way most western ears perceive it... notes that are a semitone apart tend to sound bad (or any number of octaves and a semitone), unless they are supported by some carefully chosen other notes, plus their context within a sequence has to be taken into account. There are plenty of bits of music where if you isolated a certain chord it would be awful, but in context it makes perfect sense and you may not even notice the dissonance.

When I think about it, another thing to take into account is whether the dissonant interval, is part of the scale, or outside it. For example, a sequence of chords moving from C to F might have a descending bassline. so you play a C triad like so: GCE... play it every beat of the bar. then on every beat of the bar play a bass note. C to B to A to G (your next chord wants to be an F probably). but in that context you've played this chord BGCE, which isnt so nice on its own, but it's part of a sequence and all the notes are in the scale of C, even though there is a nasty dissonance in there on the face of it. But if you play a C chord and add a C# into it, its not in the scale, and it will sound bad. play CGC#E. Pretty much, thats never going to sound good, no matter the chords you put around it.

those are things to consider in wondering what does and doesn't go together...

then of course there is the tritone or diminshed 5th, which used to be called the devils interval, but you'll find it in the second to last chord of most folk songs, sounding quite harmless. Foe example G7 to C. The G7 contains a B and an F, an unpleasant combination of notes. But look where each note is heading in context, the B moves home upwards to C, the F moves home downward to E, a perfect resolution!

[ecsmix]

Thank you very much all of you a lot of my questions has been answered.

I didn't understand that.

G7 = G,B,D,F
C = C,E,G

I know is a good resolution in key of C...5 - 1(V-I) progression but I don't understand why?

Foe example G7 to C. The G7 contains a B and an F, an unpleasant combination of notes. But look where each note is heading in context, the B moves home upwards to C, the F moves home downward to E, a perfect resolution!

[gagn21]

see if you can find some information on "tha cycle of fifths". This will explain alought and its easy to grasp. how the laws of physics apply to youre perception of what sounds good or not.very easy helpful tool.