Avoid clash notes when composing

[someone called simon]

I know is a good resolution in key of C...5 - 1(V-I) progression but I don't understand why?

it just sounds good, it sounds "right". Theory explains the mechanics of whats happening, but it cant really explain "why".

And its not just the key of C, its any key, which you probably realise. B7 to E, F7 to Bb etc. We were just using C as an example because its easier and friendlier than writing roman numerals, which mean the same thing but are applicable to any key.

Actually I guess you can think about it like this... melodies are built of the notes of a scale. melodies have tension and release. The last few notes of a melody in C might well be B to C. or D to C. Or F to E. The B or D or F is a note that is close to 'home', but not quite there. So if you take those notes and put them together you have 3 of the tones of a G7 chord... BDF. When you go to a bass part, it is often the 5th which seems to want to lead back into the Tonic or 1st most strongly. so your chord is built on this note, which in C is G. So you have your classic 'dominant 7th' GBDF, every note of which is waiting to resolve to its home note.

I guess that's why it happens!

[nuffink]

If you play an F, it will tend to clash with the E of the triad*. But if you drop your triad's E down to D while you play it, it will sound good, but will want to 'resolve'... so you start building progressions... move that D note back up to E, and move your F note up to G, still playing the C and G notes of your original chord. so you have 2 chords CDGF moving to CEGG (in both cases there the last note is played in the octave above the other notes.

That's one of my questions as well, how do I know which notes with clash with another, like F with E, why that happens, what's the theory behind it where can I study it to know what do I have to avoid?

Well, you could study my first post since that tells you exactly and in detail.

[ecsmix]

Thanks guys I am getting there, I like progressions in roman numeral and stuff is better for me to understand and apply in all keys.

Now chords on top of chords with diferent instruments,like a piano and strings, the rule is avoid to chords that are close to eachother by 1-2 semitones like e-f , f-g, g-a, is better to go on thirds/fourths/fifths, right?

ex: C7=C,E,G,B
FMAJ7=F,A,C,E

They have 2 notes in common so will sound good,right?
I know in chord progresion when it has same noptes makes a strong progression,what about on top of eachother?
Is the order of the notes on the chord matters?
If it was C,E,F,A(inversion) instead of F,A,C,E WITH C7=C,E,G,B, will that sound better or doesn't matter?

[Optomadic]

awesome!!!

So bass with another chord playing is easy to come upo with something good, what about chords on top of chords again with diferent instruments...strings and piano...

Em on top of Gm will sound good not wrong because belong to the same scale right?
But what would be your tecnincs to do something diferent, play diferent scales,modes but same key?
Thanks.

I would definatly experiment with switching between several inversions for each also. nuffink was really on the money here:

The general rules are - Don't hold an avoid note against the chord. Don't play an avoid note in a metrically strong position*.
* Assuming 4/4 the following beats in the bar are in descending order of metrical strength - 1,3,2,4 followed by the off beats.

[jancivil]

Thanks guys I am getting there, I like progressions in roman numeral and stuff is better for me to understand and apply in all keys.

Now chords on top of chords with diferent instruments,like a piano and strings, the rule is avoid to chords that are close to eachother by 1-2 semitones like e-f , f-g, g-a, is better to go on thirds/fourths/fifths, right?

ex: C7=C,E,G,B
FMAJ7=F,A,C,E

They have 2 notes in common so will sound good,right?
I know in chord progresion when it has same noptes makes a strong progression,what about on top of eachother?
Is the order of the notes on the chord matters?
If it was C,E,F,A(inversion) instead of F,A,C,E WITH C7=C,E,G,B, will that sound better or doesn't matter?

The voicing is what will determine whether these kinds of 'polychords' will sound good or not.
IE the spacing.

SO, you have:
C, E, F, G, A, B, C?

G, A, B, C might be a little close, if everything else here is in this same octave range.
But, depends on the instrumentation, how much transparency. It's not that simple a question.

Try (straight up vertically): F, C, G (Perfect fifths), B , E, A (Perfect fourths). Would work with just about any combo of instruments.


NB: I don't believe that any dogmatic rule on 'avoid notes' is 'right on the money' in all cases.

Ear be the judge, ultimately, not the rule book. It's a creative art, I think.

[nuffink]

NB: I don't believe that any dogmatic rule on 'avoid notes' is 'right on the money' in all cases.

Which is why I was exceptionally careful not to be dogmatic about it.

[nuffink]

SO, you have:
C, E, F, G, A, B, C?

G, A, B, C might be a little close, if everything else here is in this same octave range.

Really? So you don't think that the E, F might be a little close?

[Download SOphist]

G7 = G,B,D,F
C = C,E,G

[/quote]

they have the right kind of balance between similar and not so similar, i guess.

G is in both chords, it stays there (even if you don't voice it). B goes up an half-step to C and F goes an half-step down to E. Also, in the 7th chord (the V of the major scale) there is a great deal of tension between the 3rd and the 7th of the chord (in G: between B and F), that interval is called the tritone. that interval is compound of 6 half-steps, and sits in the middle of the 12 tone chromatic scale. to the human ear it sounds unresolved, i.e., requires resolution to a consonant chord (if you play it by the book). as others have stressed, you should look up the cycle of fifths as a way to wrap all the information provided here up.

then again, there is nothing as learning by finding, so i urge you to keep playing and composing, even if you seem kind of lost. i often think i missed something along the way, since the days i only knew two chords.

Cheers!

EDIT: ok, this has been covered already... i got lost somewhere

[jancivil]

NB: I don't believe that any dogmatic rule on 'avoid notes' is 'right on the money' in all cases.

Which is why I was exceptionally careful not to be dogmatic about it.

here's the gist: Do your "rules" make for good music, or are they just some information out of a book?? Cause, I'd throw them out straight away.

Seems to me the OP is already painting outside the lines with the sort of question, unless it's stated to where I don't get what's going on at all. So, I gave him or her a nice little sound, as a stimulus.

You had some 'general rules' for a specific case, or so it seems to me. Relying on a rule book is dogmatic to me, by definition. That's my view.

[jancivil]

SO, you have:
C, E, F, G, A, B, C?

G, A, B, C might be a little close, if everything else here is in this same octave range.

Really? So you don't think that the E, F might be a little close?

If it's all in the same octave, the instrumentation would have to be suitably transparent, as I said.

C, E, F, A, NICE VOICING. Do you ever work by ear, or just by some book. You sound so schoolmarmish sometimes.
This be one of them.

[nuffink]

NB: I don't believe that any dogmatic rule on 'avoid notes' is 'right on the money' in all cases.

Which is why I was exceptionally careful not to be dogmatic about it.

here's the gist: Do your "rules" make for good music, or are they just some information out of a book?? Cause, I'd throw them out straight away.

Seems to me the OP is already painting outside the lines with the sort of question, unless it's stated to where I don't get what's going on at all. So, I gave him or her a nice little sound, as a stimulus.

You had some 'general rules' for a specific case, or so it seems to me. Relying on a rule book is dogmatic to me, by definition. That's my view.

What a load of old bollocks. There's no difference between that disingenuous shite and the "just do it" merchants.

[nuffink]

SO, you have:
C, E, F, G, A, B, C?

G, A, B, C might be a little close, if everything else here is in this same octave range.

Really? So you don't think that the E, F might be a little close?

If it's all in the same octave, the instrumentation would have to be suitably transparent, as I said.

C, E, F, A, NICE VOICING. Do you ever work by ear, or just by some book. You sound so schoolmarmish sometimes.
This be one of them.

Clueless.

[jancivil]

NB: I don't believe that any dogmatic rule on 'avoid notes' is 'right on the money' in all cases.

Which is why I was exceptionally careful not to be dogmatic about it.

here's the gist: Do your "rules" make for good music, or are they just some information out of a book?? Cause, I'd throw them out straight away.

Seems to me the OP is already painting outside the lines with the sort of question, unless it's stated to where I don't get what's going on at all. So, I gave him or her a nice little sound, as a stimulus.

You had some 'general rules' for a specific case, or so it seems to me. Relying on a rule book is dogmatic to me, by definition. That's my view.

What a load of old bollocks. There's no difference between that disingenuous shite and the "just do it" merchants.

Note well, the word RELYING. "Avoid notes". Have you an actual case as to why that rule is correct - As Per the OP, who seems (I may be well wrong!) to be trying for a polychord effect - here?

You see, sir, I don't even know that you actually make music. Where's the walk? You talk an awful lot.

[nuffink]

NB: I don't believe that any dogmatic rule on 'avoid notes' is 'right on the money' in all cases.

Which is why I was exceptionally careful not to be dogmatic about it.

here's the gist: Do your "rules" make for good music, or are they just some information out of a book?? Cause, I'd throw them out straight away.

Seems to me the OP is already painting outside the lines with the sort of question, unless it's stated to where I don't get what's going on at all. So, I gave him or her a nice little sound, as a stimulus.

You had some 'general rules' for a specific case, or so it seems to me. Relying on a rule book is dogmatic to me, by definition. That's my view.

What a load of old bollocks. There's no difference between that disingenuous shite and the "just do it" merchants.

Note well, the word RELYING. Avbid notes. Have you a case as to why that rule is correct - As Per the OP, who seems (I may be well wrong!) to be trying for a polychord effect - ?

You see, sir, I don't even know that you actually make music. Where's the walk? You talk an awful lot.

I'm a piss poor musician. You're a piss poor music theorist.

[jancivil]

SO, you have:
C, E, F, G, A, B, C?

G, A, B, C might be a little close, if everything else here is in this same octave range.

Really? So you don't think that the E, F might be a little close?

If it's all in the same octave, the instrumentation would have to be suitably transparent, as I said.

C, E, F, A, NICE VOICING. Do you ever work by ear, or just by some book. You sound so schoolmarmish sometimes.
This be one of them.

Clueless.

I stand by both my examples. as well as this

and this, which throws the rule book quite out the window.

et cetera.

Do you wish to argue that 'instrumentation has nothing to do with how muddy a cluster might be'?

That 'clusters are strictly from illegal', no matter what?

Or, is it that your avoid notes actually mean something so abstract that I don't quite grok it.

Or, is your argument that a person that disagrees with Your Eminence hasn't a clue about music, period.