KVR Mix Workshop - Week 6: Guitars (2)

[obiwanjacobi]

I think I must have put in at least three or four hours on just the kick drum. I had some trouble with that track.[...]

Yeah, the Kick and the Snare both were tough. I don't like the kick on my first Take at all, but it was the best I could do in that time.

I started working on week 1 and I am fumbling with the Tone of the vocals. I have some trouble with deciding what low-mids and hi-mids were (how many Hz-es?). Also this work on isolated tracks is new to me. I can't imagine what the track will sound like when it's played together with the other tracks. So when I think the vocals sound good, they're probably too "full" and when I cut out some body they sound so thin. I spend about an hour on just the vocals but I am no nearer to a satisfying sound (even when I add some other tracks for comparison).

My problems with a simple thing as EQ filtering got me thinking that perhaps it would be a cool to find a filter plugin that shows a dual spectrum analyzer (2 colors, one for input, one for output) under the filter curve. Then you can see what frequencies are most present and adjust accoordingly. My hunch is that I would have less trouble with finding the "ideal" settings if I had some visual feedback.

The way I do it now is find the tone I want to supress by creating a sharp peak in the curve and dragging that peak arround untill I hear the "sound" I dont like and dip it down under (quite) a bit. I will do the same for freqs I do like.

I'm curious how you guys find that "ideal" filter setting for a track..?

[Kim Lajoie]

I started working on week 1 and I am fumbling with the Tone of the vocals. I have some trouble with deciding what low-mids and hi-mids were (how many Hz-es?).

Roughly speaking, low mids are below 1khz and upper mids are above 1khz. I can't be any more specific because it depends entirely on the character of the sound. The terms "Low mids" and "Upper mids" (and "bottom" and "top") are no scientific terms that relate to exact frequencies. They refer to psychoacoustics - the way we perceive the sound.

It's a bit like cooking for a guest. Your guest might say they like a bit of chilli in their food to make it hot, but you have to make a judgement about which variety of chilli to use, which form (fresh, dried, flakes, power, etc), and how much to use. The answers to these questions depend on what chillis you have available to you, what other herbs and spices you're using, what the style of cooking is, and your own personal taste.

It's the same for sound. I can tell you to dip the lower mids, but where you dip and how much depends on what tools you're using. Some EQs don't exactly do what you tell them. Some compressors alter the colour of the sound. You have to work with what you've got. Then (if you were participating from the start) you'd email me your mix so far, and tell me what you did. Then I could give you more specific advice, relative to your settings.

Also this work on isolated tracks is new to me. I can't imagine what the track will sound like when it's played together with the other tracks. So when I think the vocals sound good, they're probably too "full" and when I cut out some body they sound so thin. I spend about an hour on just the vocals but I am no nearer to a satisfying sound (even when I add some other tracks for comparison).

This simply takes practice. To do this well, you need to have a good idea (in your head) of how your mix will sound before you even start. That's what this workshop is for - you can work on a mix, knowing what the end result will be like. I'm also giving detailed advice on what I did to achieve that end result. And for those people who were involved from the start, I'm even holding their hands a bit and providing feedback on their attempts.

My problems with a simple thing as EQ filtering got me thinking that perhaps it would be a cool to find a filter plugin that shows a dual spectrum analyzer (2 colors, one for input, one for output) under the filter curve. Then you can see what frequencies are most present and adjust accoordingly. My hunch is that I would have less trouble with finding the "ideal" settings if I had some visual feedback.

I don't recommend it. The more you use visual analysers, the more you learn to rely on your eyes instead of your ears. The best EQ plugins are those that have no graph, no spectrum analyser, only knobs. It forces you to listen to the sound, and do what sounds right, not what looks right. This is especially critical when you're beginning and just learning how to listen.

The way I do it now is find the tone I want to supress by creating a sharp peak in the curve and dragging that peak arround untill I hear the "sound" I dont like and dip it down under (quite) a bit. I will do the same for freqs I do like.

I'm curious how you guys find that "ideal" filter setting for a track..?

This is a valid technique, but you have to be careful that you're not butchering your sound in the process. Taking this approach, it's very easy to simply use up all your available EQ bands trying to make the track sound "good", before you've even thought if it's appropriate. "Good" and "right" are often not the same.

When you've got some more experience, you'll find a better approach is to listen to the sound before you EQ it, and decide before you touch any controls what you're going to do. You don't have to guess the exact frequencies (although it helps)... but at least decide on a direction like "dip the mud in the lower mids and bring out the articulation in the upper mids", or "darken the sound by filtering the top off and give it some rumble by boosting the bottom".

-Kim.

[obiwanjacobi]

Wow, thanks for your reply, Kim. I really appreciate it.

You're right of course: its all about listening. With some sounds mainly from the drum kit (the simpler sounds) I had a pretty good idea where I wanted it before I started adjusting filters -although the Kick and Snare didn't come out right at all . But with a complex sound like a voice I find it hard what to cut and what to leave. Like you said: it takes practice to build experience.

My equipement is all very basic and I switched yesterday to my "normal" head-phones. I was using my wireless head-phones but found out that they compress the sound quite a bit.

Thanks again.

[yonyz]

Can anyone please explain how to remove the pop sound in the "Raw-Whispers" track, at 00:08?
You should probably raise the volume of your speakers to hear that track at a decent level.

That's not exactly a pop sounds, I guess.
It's probably part of the singing, but still, I'm sure it wasn't planned to be sung that way.

[Kim Lajoie]

Are you referring to the attack on "as it witnesses"?

-Kim.

[yonyz]

Yes, exactly.

[Kim Lajoie]

I imagine it's only a problem if you're using heavy compression and your compressor's attack time is not fast enough. Try saturation after (or instead of) the compressor. Alternatively, try a digital limiter.

-Kim.

[yonyz]

I can hear it with no effects at all, you just need to raise the volume.
There are a few more such clicks on the track, and splitting these points to individual clips and lowered their volume works best for me.

[Kim Lajoie]

There are a few more such clicks on the track, and splitting these points to individual clips and lowered their volume works best for me.

Go with whatever works.

Mind you, the versions of the files I gave you are exactly what I mixed with. I didn't do any further edits.

-Kim.

[yonyz]

Well, since there's so much time to mix, I can spend some time fine-tuning the tracks.

[asnor]

Kim,

I had another question about my mix, but I figured I would ask it here, in case someone else might be having the same sort of problem with theirs.

I noticed that your final mix seems to have a sort of rhythmic dynamic, or bounce to it, which I'm not getting in my own mix. Would this be due to a different choice of instrument levels in yours compared to mine, or processing? Or, perhaps, is it something that will be brought out in the mastering stage?

BTW, I don't think it is the actual dynamics. What I mean is that the feel of it is dynamic, where mine just feels sort of flat. I hope that makes sense.

[Kim Lajoie]

Interesting question. To be honest, I'm not sure what you're hearing. Comparing our two latest mixes, there are only some subtle differences - such as my vocal being a little bit back and my snare being more forward, and your piano being too loud. I don't think there's any magic mojo going on, even in mastering.

If I remember rightly, I didn't use any compression or any deliberate (audible) dynamics processing - just EQ and limiting. If you load up all the processed tracks for the whole song, you should hear something pretty close to my final version of the song. So, you should be hearing the "bounce", whatever that is. Try muting and soloing different tracks to try to find out where the bounce is coming from. I'm curious about this.

-Kim.

[asnor]

Hmmm...how can I explain this better. I'll bet if I can find a way to explain it, I'll have the answer to my question.

Ok, I think I might have the answer, but I'll need to test it out on my mix when I get home.

Basically, I think it has to do with the the snare and the two heavy guitar tracks that come in later in the song.

1. Your snare has more energy and impact sitting forward in the mix, where as mine, sitting back where it is sounds pretty decent, but doesn't really hit. Since the snare is a large part of the groove, I'm going to go bring it back up front again.

2. Those two heavy guitar tracks have a sort of pump to them, where they aren't solid lines, but more rhythmic, like morse code, as opposed to the more solid line of the L and R guitars that do the harmony.
Reinforcing and subtly loosening the timing around the kick and snare, they break up the song and make it groove, later in the song, giving it a sort of pumping rhythm that you can feel.
Anyway, your heavy guitars are more prominent, where as mine are blended more with the L/R harmony guitars, which masks their rhythmic characteristics, giving my mix a flatter (straight line) feel to it.

So, I think that is where it's at, but like I said, I'll have to test it when I get home.

BTW, I fixed that piano. I don't recall if I mentioned that in my email. I think I made it that way because I've been doing alot of piano stuff the last few months. The interesting thing is, because I'm pretty tuned into the piano, it sounds louder to me, in your mix, than it really is. So, I'm thinking it is more prominent and I need to make it prominent and audible throughout my own mix. But, after you mentioned how loud it was, I went back and listened to your mix and noticed that it's not as loud there as It seemed before.

Anyway, I'll let you know what I find in my test and, either way, I'll upload the new version with the piano fix.

Thanks