Avoid clash notes when composing

[jancivil]

NB: I don't believe that any dogmatic rule on 'avoid notes' is 'right on the money' in all cases.

Which is why I was exceptionally careful not to be dogmatic about it.

here's the gist: Do your "rules" make for good music, or are they just some information out of a book?? Cause, I'd throw them out straight away.

Seems to me the OP is already painting outside the lines with the sort of question, unless it's stated to where I don't get what's going on at all. So, I gave him or her a nice little sound, as a stimulus.

You had some 'general rules' for a specific case, or so it seems to me. Relying on a rule book is dogmatic to me, by definition. That's my view.

What a load of old bollocks. There's no difference between that disingenuous shite and the "just do it" merchants.

Note well, the word RELYING. Avbid notes. Have you a case as to why that rule is correct - As Per the OP, who seems (I may be well wrong!) to be trying for a polychord effect - ?

You see, sir, I don't even know that you actually make music. Where's the walk? You talk an awful lot.

I'm a piss poor musician. You're a piss poor music theorist.

Practice trumps theory.

Music is about making something sound beautiful to me.

When challenged, you have this to say? I wouldn't lower myself to defend my theory chops here; as far as academic theory, I been there, done that, wore the teeshirt, and Who Cares Anyway.

Good Luck, and God Bless.

[nuffink]

SO, you have:
C, E, F, G, A, B, C?

G, A, B, C might be a little close, if everything else here is in this same octave range.

Really? So you don't think that the E, F might be a little close?

If it's all in the same octave, the instrumentation would have to be suitably transparent, as I said.

C, E, F, A, NICE VOICING. Do you ever work by ear, or just by some book. You sound so schoolmarmish sometimes.
This be one of them.

Clueless.

I stand by both my examples. as well as this

and this, which throws the rule book quite out the window.

et cetera.

Do you wish to argue that 'instrumentation has nothing to do with how muddy a cluster might be'?

That 'clusters are strictly from illegal', no matter what?

Or, is it that your avoid notes actually mean something so abstract that I don't quite grok it.

Or, is your argument that a person that disagrees with Your Eminence hasn't a clue about music, period.

Careful now, that straw man's in danger of collapsing.

[nuffink]

When challenged, you have this to say? I wouldn't lower myself to defend my theory chops here; as far as academic theory, I been there, done that, wore the teeshirt, and Who Cares Anyway.

[vurt]

What a load of old bollocks. There's no difference between that disingenuous shite and the "just do it" merchants.

oi i resent that. least were not disingenous about it

[jancivil]

I don't resent that, I just know it's utterly false.

The straw man is the guy who doesn't apply information to get any knowledge to work from at all, to make anything, but posts here with stuff like (remember this gem?):

"the major sixth from the tonic is usually avoided in 12-bar blues."

which, is utterly false, misleads a newcomer to the practice, and serves basically to point to oneself as an expert.

Which, until we see some evidence of expert application, is bullshit.

[jancivil]

SO, you have:
C, E, F, G, A, B, C?

G, A, B, C might be a little close, if everything else here is in this same octave range.

Really? So you don't think that the E, F might be a little close?

If it's all in the same octave, the instrumentation would have to be suitably transparent, as I said.

C, E, F, A, NICE VOICING. Do you ever work by ear, or just by some book. You sound so schoolmarmish sometimes.
This be one of them.

Clueless.

I stand by both my examples. as well as this

and this, which throws the rule book quite out the window.

et cetera.

Do you wish to argue that 'instrumentation has nothing to do with how muddy a cluster might be'?

That 'clusters are strictly from illegal', no matter what?

Or, is it that your avoid notes actually mean something so abstract that I don't quite grok it.

Or, is your argument that a person that disagrees with Your Eminence hasn't a clue about music, period.

Careful now, that straw man's in danger of collapsing.

Argue points. You can't do it. You don't have the ability to make an argument.

You haven't done it here, you've never done it in music, you just snipe impotently like you've done.

Have you ever successfully dealt with an issue of 'how transparent is this combo of instruments sounding a cluster', or can you only cite 'avoid notes' like a copy/paste manuever from some dead text, which only ever applied to academic practice in the strictest of senses.

If you are piss-poor musician, why are you trying to teach people music?
By contrast, I'm a piss-poor PEDANT, which is what you clearly mean by 'theoretician'.

[jancivil]

What a load of old bollocks. There's no difference between that disingenuous shite and the "just do it" merchants.

oi i resent that. least were not disingenous about it

The word is dishonest, not disingenuous.

[nuffink]

Oh dear, we are in a tizzy.

[nuffink]

For anyone wondering, or too lazy to find out, what this tantrum is all about. I made this post which I thought I'd hedged around with as many generalisations as were decent. Apparently not enough for our excitable free spirit.

It's been said that there's only one dissonant interval left - the minor 2nd/minor 9th. This might be pushing it a bit but...
A note which forms this interval with any of the chord notes is considered an "avoid note". So let's take your Em7 chord E, G, B, D. The avoid notes are F, Ab, C, Eb.
Now, "avoid" doesn't actually mean don't play. The general rules are - Don't hold an avoid note against the chord. Don't play an avoid note in a metrically strong position*.
You'll notice that if you play an avoid note in the bass (e.g. F below E) it forms a major 7th and not a minor 2nd. This is a more consonant interval, and is one reason for chords being played in inversion.
The other reasonably dissonant interval is the tritone (6 semitones). Chords which feature a tritone (typically dominant (7) chords and diminished/half-diminished chords) are reckoned to accommodate the avoid notes easier than other chords as their inherent soft dissonance masks the harsh dissonance of the minor 2nd/minor 9th.

* Assuming 4/4 the following beats in the bar are in descending order of metrical strength - 1,3,2,4 followed by the off beats.

[Tony Ostinato]

"i dont want to have anything to do with physics im just gonna play catch with my son"


you cant avoid theory in music anymore than you can avoid physics in reality, even if you play random junk theres theory to it, ignorance of theory isnt gonna change that anymore than the effects of gravity on dads throw.


knowing the theory helps save you the time of going into the neighbors yard to get the ball over and over, and your son wont lose patience with you.

[jancivil]

For anyone wondering, or too lazy to find out, what this tantrum is all about. I made this post which I thought I'd hedged around with as many generalisations as were decent. Apparently not enough for our excitable free spirit.

It's been said that there's only one dissonant interval left - the minor 2nd/minor 9th. This might be pushing it a bit but...
A note which forms this interval with any of the chord notes is considered an "avoid note". So let's take your Em7 chord E, G, B, D. The avoid notes are F, Ab, C, Eb.
Now, "avoid" doesn't actually mean don't play. The general rules are - Don't hold an avoid note against the chord. Don't play an avoid note in a metrically strong position*.
You'll notice that if you play an avoid note in the bass (e.g. F below E) it forms a major 7th and not a minor 2nd. This is a more consonant interval, and is one reason for chords being played in inversion.
The other reasonably dissonant interval is the tritone (6 semitones). Chords which feature a tritone (typically dominant (7) chords and diminished/half-diminished chords) are reckoned to accommodate the avoid notes easier than other chords as their inherent soft dissonance masks the harsh dissonance of the minor 2nd/minor 9th.

* Assuming 4/4 the following beats in the bar are in descending order of metrical strength - 1,3,2,4 followed by the off beats.

No, in fact the *argument* - & I do tend to be vehement when countered with nothing but insinuations & innuendo instead of a case - was when I disagreed in principle according to the OP, who seemed to be, by that point in the thread, asking about something less abstract, IE polychords. So, I gave him or her some options as far as voicing the elements of two chords together (including a minor second, giving a major 7 chord in close voicing), based on some experience in such matters. A couple of nice sounds, I gave, then Mr Nuffink became snide, which isn't surprising.

The general rule, Who Cares Anyway. Musicians do it all the time, generally speaking.

Assertions such as 'M7 IS a more consonant interval than m2', are not based in anything real. It's abstract, and the OP was asking, In My View, for something he or she could use.

I believe this kind of thing is the basis for theory into practice, instead of citing theoretical abstractions as authority.

[nuffink]

Let's throw a spotlight on that straw man for you poppet. So as you can concentrate on the job in hand...

It's been said that there's only one dissonant interval left - the minor 2nd/minor 9th. This might be pushing it a bit but...
A note which forms this interval with any of the chord notes is considered an "avoid note". So let's take your Em7 chord E, G, B, D. The avoid notes are F, Ab, C, Eb.
Now, "avoid" doesn't actually mean don't play. The general rules are - Don't hold an avoid note against the chord. Don't play an avoid note in a metrically strong position*.
You'll notice that if you play an avoid note in the bass (e.g. F below E) it forms a major 7th and not a minor 2nd. This is a more consonant interval, and is one reason for chords being played in inversion.
The other reasonably dissonant interval is the tritone (6 semitones). Chords which feature a tritone (typically dominant (7) chords and diminished/half-diminished chords) are reckoned to accommodate the avoid notes easier than other chords as their inherent soft dissonance masks the harsh dissonance of the minor 2nd/minor 9th.

* Assuming 4/4 the following beats in the bar are in descending order of metrical strength - 1,3,2,4 followed by the off beats.

[jancivil]

Let's throw a spotlight on that straw man for you poppet. So as you can concentrate on the job in hand...

It's been said that there's only one dissonant interval left - the minor 2nd/minor 9th. This might be pushing it a bit but...
A note which forms this interval with any of the chord notes is considered an "avoid note". So let's take your Em7 chord E, G, B, D. The avoid notes are F, Ab, C, Eb.
Now, "avoid" doesn't actually mean don't play. The general[/size] rules are - Don't hold an avoid note against the chord. Don't play an avoid note in a metrically strong position*.
You'll notice that if you play an avoid note in the bass (e.g. F below E) it forms a major 7th and not a minor 2nd. This is a more consonant interval, and is one reason for chords being played in inversion.
The other reasonably dissonant interval is the tritone (6 semitones). Chords which feature a tritone (typically dominant (7) chords and diminished/half-diminished chords) are reckoned to accommodate the avoid notes easier than other chords as their inherent soft dissonance masks the harsh dissonance of the minor 2nd/minor 9th.

* Assuming 4/4 the following beats in the bar are in descending order of metrical strength - 1,3,2,4 followed by the off beats.[/size]

Well, as my objection was specific and I just discussed it (and why is it so hard for you to meet a disagreement without being this rude?), that's really rather loud I think.

BUT! would you like some Concrete examples of these 'avoidances'-not-avoided put into a musical context?
You have to go and try them out, and then cite particular objections to the sound.

Bass Ab. Go up an M6 and get that F covered. C up a P5th from that. E, the M3 above. Put the B up a P5. Then go up to Eb. (Spell it D# and call it part of a 'C Maj7 #9', part of the polychord here, wtf). A M7 up to that D.

This means, that a close voicing isn't real preferable in such an example. This here, one would have to weigh the individual instruments carefully, depending on a lot of things, the amount of time held, you know, like a musical context. Something real, I do it all the time.

But, even though I haven't a piano at my disposal atm, I'm confident this chord, on a piano, will SOUND. And not be that ugly.

[nuffink]

Bass Ab. Go up an M6 and get that F covered. C up a P5th from that. E, the M3 above. Put the B up a P5. Then go up to Eb. (Spell it D# and call it part of a 'C Maj7 #9', part of the polychord here, wtf). A M7 up to that D.

Ab, F, C, E, B

Voiced with the E above the F forming a Major 7th rather than the minor 2nd.

You do have a point here? Or are you attempting to make me look good?

[Lakser_u]

The way I learnded 'composing' is by experimenting. Sometimes you'll make something beautiful, sometimes you won't. But if you go on with this, you will discover patterns.

you can read all books on music theory, but in the ends it's about creativity...