where next with software instruments?

VST, AU, AAX, CLAP, etc. Plugin Virtual Instruments Discussion
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Try here: http://www.myspace.com/novakill

But think about it - at the very least technology allows us to work solo, using technology in place of a backing group. So where we might once have had to surround ourselves with talented musicians who could create the music in our heads, we can now sit in our bedrooms, or at the beach, and do it all ourselves, much as Beethoven did in his latter days when he couldn't even hear what he was doing. You could say that we are simply substituting their musicianship for ours but that is not the case, as we never have to play anything at all if we don't want to. 30 years ago you would absolutely have needed at least some musicianship in order to be able to write a song. Not now.
aciddose wrote:come on bones, you've said you work in the industry. the difference is like between cooledit96 and cubase VST, to make an audio analogy. it isn't just processing power because if it was people would still be using the TWENTY year old software. they're not, the new software is much, much better.
It is exactly processing power. The actual tools are virtually unchanged from Bryce in the mid 90's, where I could sculpt terrain using a brush in a 3D viewport. What it is is the difference between how many plugins you could run 10 years ago compared to how many you can run today. i.e. We are still doing the same thing, sculpting detail onto a 3D model using brushes and other tools, we can just do it to the nth degree now.
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there were no physical models in the mid 90s. the power required for physical simulation is a lot less than for rendering and the fact is although there were some simple skeletal based implementations back then there was nothing near the kind of accuracy and variation available today. in order to model a membrane like a skirt or hair back then required that you actually hand modeled the membrane using a skeletal mesh and set up EVERY individual function and property at every joint.

today you just press a single button.

just think about it, water used to be modeled back then by a simple up/down movement. now we have real membrane simulation where individual waves are REAL and respond exactly as they should, and automatically. that used to be something you'd have to do by hand in the mid 90s.

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Korg Prophecy. Or if you mean 3D, Max had a dynamics simulation engine in it from version 1. All of these examples you are coming up with are technology that has been around for ages, but hardware grunt has made it usable. Again, its the number of plugins analogy, nothing more.
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Korg Odyssey, bx-oberhausen, Proxima, PolyMax, GR8, JP6K, Union, Atomika,
Invader 2, Flow Motion, Olga, TRK 01, Thorn, Spire, VG Iron

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BONES wrote:Try here: http://www.myspace.com/novakill

But think about it - at the very least technology allows us to work solo, using technology in place of a backing group. So where we might once have had to surround ourselves with talented musicians who could create the music in our heads, we can now sit in our bedrooms, or at the beach, and do it all ourselves, much as Beethoven did in his latter days when he couldn't even hear what he was doing. You could say that we are simply substituting their musicianship for ours but that is not the case, as we never have to play anything at all if we don't want to. 30 years ago you would absolutely have needed at least some musicianship in order to be able to write a song. Not now.
I shall amend my position on this to qualify it such that it would depend on the type of music. Given the style of music you create, I can see why you find creative talent the most significant aspect of the process. This simply wouldn't be sufficient for other styles that require more direct musicianship. Not a criticism...just an observation.
We escape the trap of our own subjectivity by
perceiving neither black nor white but shades of grey

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I'd happily take it as a criticism because I find those other styles boring and self-indulgent. That said, I would love to hear any musician who could play the first bassline in DEMONIZER with anything like the precision I can with my sequencer, from one end of the song to the other, and still make it entertaining to watch on stage.

But you are still ignoring the core of my argument, because I could make any of those styles if I chose to, simply by downloading a MIDI file and pressing play. I don't need to be a virtuoso performer to create a virtuoso performance. Its like a pianola - any idiot can play piano with one of those and it sounds very close to a human performance. Now that we can be orders of magnitude more precise and subtle, we can do it exactly. And because we can emulate another person's performance exactly, we can deconstruct it and harness its essence to create our own, unique virtuoso performances. Musicianship is bunk, you have just wasted a significant portion of your life. Get over it and embrace the next thing, its what we do. Kind of like a failed marriage.
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bones, you know musicians typically play instruments because it's enjoyable, right?

it's like jerking off, who'd waste the time and effort if it wasn't fun? seriously, you're all like "yeah i got my bangin' sheep and you should just admit you've been wasting your life away without one". get real.

i'm a computer.



(for anyone who didn't get the first reference: http://etnies.com/site-images/news/arti ... -sheep.jpg
)

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BONES wrote:But you are still ignoring the core of my argument, because I could make any of those styles if I chose to, simply by downloading a MIDI file and pressing play. I don't need to be a virtuoso performer to create a virtuoso performance. Its like a pianola - any idiot can play piano with one of those and it sounds very close to a human performance. Now that we can be orders of magnitude more precise and subtle, we can do it exactly. And because we can emulate another person's performance exactly, we can deconstruct it and harness its essence to create our own, unique virtuoso performances. Musicianship is bunk, you have just wasted a significant portion of your life. Get over it and embrace the next thing, its what we do. Kind of like a failed marriage.
I'm really trying to understand what possible creative talent is involved in downloading a MIDI file and pressing play. Ignoring for the moment the complete lack of originality in doing so, what is the difference between that and simply playing a CD of someone else creating music. You're not creating a style or anything but simply replicating the efforts of someone else. Even using loops and samples would be more original because they could be rearranged and altered in some sort of creative musical collage. I don't see deconstruction as having any applicability if there's no talent to make it into something else.

I do find it interesting that you consider other music styles boring and self-indulgent. One could certainly apply the same description to your own preferred style using the same criteria.
We escape the trap of our own subjectivity by
perceiving neither black nor white but shades of grey

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BONES wrote:Korg Prophecy. Or if you mean 3D, Max had a dynamics simulation engine in it from version 1. All of these examples you are coming up with are technology that has been around for ages, but hardware grunt has made it usable. Again, its the number of plugins analogy, nothing more.
T-splines, Normal mapping, Instancing, Radiosity Caching. All of these are pure software improvements and not due to hardware grunt. Sure, hardware makes a big difference, but there are a lot of innovations in the 3D world, even if non-programmers may not appreciate it.

One of the main problems the software instrument market is hitting, is the same one that 'web applications' bring about. By letting 'anyone' create the software (using SynthEdit/Maker etc.) there will be a huge addition of software written with the best intentions (or to make a quick buck) but it's not written by skilled programmers and so will be lacking in several ways. The sheer number of these additions sways the public perception of how software is changing, and almost becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Good software takes time, and skilled programmers, whether it's for music, 3D or anything else. That's where you'll find your improvements.

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BONES wrote:
aciddose wrote:come on bones, you've said you work in the industry. the difference is like between cooledit96 and cubase VST, to make an audio analogy. it isn't just processing power because if it was people would still be using the TWENTY year old software. they're not, the new software is much, much better.
It is exactly processing power. The actual tools are virtually unchanged from Bryce in the mid 90's, where I could sculpt terrain using a brush in a 3D viewport. What it is is the difference between how many plugins you could run 10 years ago compared to how many you can run today. i.e. We are still doing the same thing, sculpting detail onto a 3D model using brushes and other tools, we can just do it to the nth degree now.
You really don't know what you are talking about. Comparing Bryce to Mudbox or Zbrush? That is laughable. You are just determined to stick to your point no matter how absurd it is.

The SOFTWARE has changed and improved so much that the user experience is profoundly different. There are tools that did not exist 10 years ago. Today you can sculpt a body in Zbrush and have no concern for the topology because it is easy to re-create it, with all its detail with a new topology. There was no tool anything like that at the time... Things like Mesh extraction, non-linear layers so you can work at different levels of complexity, topology based symmetry... there was nothing like these tools 10 years ago. These are significant software advances that have completely changed how modeling is done and making it much closer to the physical action of working in clay instead of a technical exercise. Sculptors are using software now thanks to these advances.

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aciddose wrote:bones, you know musicians typically play instruments because it's enjoyable, right?
Its hardly relevant to the discussion though, is it?
eduardo_b wrote:I'm really trying to understand what possible creative talent is involved in downloading a MIDI file and pressing play. Ignoring for the moment the complete lack of originality in doing so, what is the difference between that and simply playing a CD of someone else creating music.
For the first part, you're absolutely right. But the point is that 30 years ago the only way to recreate a performance was to be as good as the original, which generally meant a lot of hard work and dedication. To the second point, the difference is that I can take a violin performance and turn it into a clarinet or euphonium or any other type if instrument or, as I said, I can deconstruct it and use its essence to inform something of my own. e.g. I can see how velocity influences a piano piece and use that to give some nuance to a synth line I have created. I don't need to learn how to play it that well, I can simply look at the parameters and recreate the performance mechanically.
You're not creating a style or anything but simply replicating the efforts of someone else.
Isn't that pretty much what jazz musicians do all the time? It sure sounds that way to me [my Dad loves jazz, so I've heard a lot of it]. And guitar solos, most of them fall into a pretty narrow range of categories. Everything's been done before, all that's left is to find a new perspective or a new fusion. To my mind that still leaves an almost infinite scope for us to carve out our own niche, so its not a big problem.
I do find it interesting that you consider other music styles boring and self-indulgent. One could certainly apply the same description to your own preferred style using the same criteria.
I don't see how - what we do is fairly minimal when you look at it. We don't put in solos just to prove how good we are, we put in only that which is necessary to support the song. We don't endlessly flog the good bit until you're sick of hearing it, we just put it out there and move on to the next bit. I don't think there is much, if any, ego or self-indulgence in our songs at all, except maybe in some of the lyrical content but I see that as somewhat separate.
koalaboy wrote:T-splines, Normal mapping, Instancing, Radiosity Caching. All of these are pure software improvements and not due to hardware grunt.
But they are all old technology. Radiosity, for instance, has been around since I first got into 3D in 1995. Its just that back then you avoided it like the plague because it brought your machine to its knees. Even normal maps were around for a long time before game engines were up to the task of employing them [which is when they became commonplace]. 3D Studio had instancing in DOS and it Point-cache was implemented in about version 4, IIRC. Its all old technology that just needed lots of grunt to be usable.
By letting 'anyone' create the software (using SynthEdit/Maker etc.) there will be a huge addition of software written with the best intentions (or to make a quick buck) but it's not written by skilled programmers and so will be lacking in several ways.
Of course it is. Jeff McClintock, Chris Kerry and David Haupt, amongst many others, are clearly very talented programmers. What SE and SM does is to allow collaboration between these guys and people with a more musical perspective. So someone like me can take their excellent work and use it to create a musical instrument that works brilliantly in comparison to some of the big commercial offerings that seem to be aimed at satisfying noodlers and geeks, without offering a whole lot to experienced musicians. Kind of like a small-scale version of the way Rob Papen has collaborated with different programmers to produce his line of instruments. AlgoMusic, with Tim Conrardy and Dr Ambient would probably be one of the most successful SE collaborations.
Good software takes time, and skilled programmers, whether it's for music, 3D or anything else. That's where you'll find your improvements.
Of course, and if you look at the evolution of SE and SM, you can see a sustained effort over many years, involving a number of clearly talented people. A big part of the appeal of those platforms is the high quality components on offer. I think the best 3rd party oscillators for SE are as good as the best commercial stuff out there and the native SE filters are more than competitive with expensive commercial plugins.
pdxindy wrote:You really don't know what you are talking about. Comparing Bryce to Mudbox or Zbrush? That is laughable. You are just determined to stick to your point no matter how absurd it is.
The SOFTWARE has changed and improved so much that the user experience is profoundly different. There are tools that did not exist 10 years ago. Today you can sculpt a body in Zbrush and have no concern for the topology because it is easy to re-create it, with all its detail with a new topology. There was no tool anything like that at the time.
That is exactly how you created a terrain in Bryce 12 or more years ago. You took a primitive shape and sculpted mountains and valleys by painting on it with various brushes and other tools. All that things like MudBox are doing is taking that same, familiar process to another level. What allows that is the fact that hardware can support all of the enhancements it offers over Bryce. Mudbox simply wouldn't work if your hardware was brought to it knees when the poly count got over 10,000 or if you could only load a couple of megs of textures into graphics RAM. In fact we haven't found a PC in the office that Mudbox2009 will install on, it is so strict about hardware.
I'm not arguing that the "user experience is profoundly different", I'm simply saying that it is hardware that has facilitated the transformation, not any great leaps in the software's underlying technology.
.. Things like Mesh extraction, non-linear layers so you can work at different levels of complexity, topology based symmetry... there was nothing like these tools 10 years ago.
Yes there were. MeshSmooth came into Max at v4 or v5, around 10 years ago. Lightwave and Blender had sub-division surfaces long before that, although at the time it wasn't nearly as interactive as it is now, because of the hardware limitations.
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I have been a software engineer for about a decade now, and to say that software hasn't really changed is very naive. The difficulty with software and music production all comes down to the fact that music when looked at generally is too massive of a problem to be tackled by a single company. Sure VST was the most successful attempt at standardising plugins, but this causes huge problems down the track, by binding users to particular host platforms. The only solution that will bring this technology forward is for a massive open-source host application that can compete with the likes of Pro-Tools/Cubase etc that also contains room for a standardised (protected and saleable) plug-in model to be made. This would remove the restrictions on the current model and allow for a better progressive movement in any direction, but still leaving room for companies to make money.

I also agree that the UI model most currently used is terrible. Unfortunately this design was adopted because musicians (although talented) are on average completely stupid when it comes to IT, and have some retarded need for things that look like hardware. I can't wait for creativity that shines through music to break out through instrument ui.

Finally to the current state of hardware. Humans have just about reached the limit of what a fundamental CPU can do speed wise, and it looks as though processor companies are taking the multi-core road (>4), which will eventually require a new look to the way software is made fundamentally. I see virtual instruments of the future running on a primarily concurrent software architecture which will most likely allow for far more intricate detail running at much faster speeds.

Oh and as for music and playing instruments, a true musician knows that it is not only what you play, but very much how you play it, live it and believe it.

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I'd suggest the retarded view is yours, sonny. I don't know about you but I am inspired by the way things look. Its a two-way street - things that I can grok straight away and things that look really good will attract my interest and inspire me to play around with them in a way that an ordered, logical UI may not. I'd use Kai's Power Tools as an excellent example from the graphics world, or the difference between MDA's JX10 synth and something like JX Synth. Both offer broadly similar features, both sound pretty good in various situations but only the latter really inspires you to play around with it.
UI in any creative endeavour is much more than the most efficient means by which to present the user with the controls provided by the application. OK, not in 3D, which is very technical in most aspects, but that's why I got the hell out of 3D at the first opportunity.
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Invader 2, Flow Motion, Olga, TRK 01, Thorn, Spire, VG Iron

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where next with software instruments?

my house.


:P
ImageImageImageImage

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Off topic folks (sorry) but after reading this whole thread:

It has made me realize i am happy recording/creating music using a 'conventional' setup of a *drummer*, bass player, guitar player(s) and a vocalist(s) using 'basic' microphones and either or both a HD recorder and tape machine :shock:

*Toontrack Music's DFH, EZDrummer, EZX Expansion Kits & Superior Drummer 2.0 are used sometimes either triggered or sequenced*

Still i find the topic very fascinating even though it is not my cup of tea, thanks for a good read

Nekro

VSTi's: Virtual Sexual Transmitted Infection's...are the future :P

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NEKRO.MACHINE wrote:Off topic folks (sorry) but after reading this whole thread:

It has made me realize i am happy recording/creating music using a 'conventional' setup of a *drummer*, bass player, guitar player(s) and a vocalist(s) using 'basic' microphones and either or both a HD recorder and tape machine :shock:
Not really OT. I think it points out how easily the focus becomes fixated on the insatiable desire for new tools, on the assumption that they will make possible what isn't now. As you note, simply using conventional musical instruments offers many challenges and possibilities. But your music and your interests likely don't align with those who are, I think, as interested in sound design as music itself...perhaps even more so.
We escape the trap of our own subjectivity by
perceiving neither black nor white but shades of grey

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