Need help with detecting time signatures.

[metafex]

Ok...I have been playing guitar for many years, but always to the tune of my own drum...which there in lies the problem.

I have never known how to determine what time signature I am playing in. I either learned songs (when I first started playing) after that I learned scales, some basic theory for harmony/chord construction, but never how to play in a different time signature...well, to be more exact, how to count what time I am playing in.

I was in a band for a number of years and our drummer would always let us (the rest of the band) know what time we were in, and that was fine...but now I am not playing with a drummer...and I guess I think in a 4/4 universe.

I was trying to play to a drum beat, but I was always one beat off...and was told by a co-writer of the project "its because you are playing the verse in 5 and the chorus in 4."

So...the quick and dirty: how do I count my beats? If that is not clear...how do I know im counting right? Yes, I can count...but how DO you count the beats? If that makes sense.

I was hoping for a laymans answer to this...

I mean...I tend to write (based on my band days) in 4/4, 5/4 and 6/8

But I dont know when I am and when I am not.

I hope I made all of this clear.

Thanks in advance by the way

[BertKoor]

4/4: One and Two and Three and Four and ...
6/8: One ta ta Two ta ta ...
3/4: One and Two and Three and ...
5/4: One and Two and Three and One and Two and ...
or: One and Two and One and Two and Three and ...
or when it's faster like in Brubeck's "Take Five": One two three One two ...
7/8: One two One two One two three ...

Others will do it differently though.

[Lost_Highway]

4/4: one two three four (fast); one and two and three and four and (slow)

6/8: one two (very fast); one and a two and a (fast); one...six (slow)

I tend not to play in 6/8 and probably wouldn't count one through six now if I did (see below)

12/8, assuming it's triplet feel 4/4: one two three four (very fast); one and a two and a etc

3/4: same as other /4 signatures, but the number of the counting shall be 3

any-odd-integer/8: broken down into units of 2 and 3 and count either "apples" or "galloping" respectively, or "taka" and "takita" respectively. (You can also count takadimi for a group of 4, which can be less tongue-tieing when things get really fast )

The section of a piece I'm fiddling with at the moment is a slowish 13/8 with the rhythm taka taka takita takita takita on fingerpicked acoustic guitar.

[duncanparsons]

As a drummer, I NEVER count odd time sigs in combinations of twos and threes... Sometimes it could help in getting the accents, but then why not just speak the accent of the proper number any way.

Also, I've never understood folk who actually say '1 e and a', rather than '1 uh and a' takes all sorts.

Reason for not splitting up time sig counting into 2s and 3s is so that you keep the full appreciation of how a bar is structured, and where you currently are in it. If you're in 11/8, counting 4 twos and a three, or two fours and a three may totally hide what is happening in the bar, and it's very easy to get lost ('did I just do a four before?'). Admittedly when it gets over 10, I often go alphabetic to keep the syllables down; but often at that point you tend to follow a feel, rather than trying to intuit numerically.

For working stuff out, easiest thing is to record it, and listen back without the pressure of performance - do one job at a time. Once you have counted around to where the accent repeats come and have it nailed, then play it again counting. Getting someone else to count when you are playing may sometimes be necessary, but get them to do it quietly at first, otherwise you could easily be distracted and play something different causing problems of both listening and performance! Been there, done that, lesson now being shared!

HTH
DSP

[Lost_Highway]

'1 e and a'

For me, that e would take longer to pronounce (internally or aloud) than the other three and wouldn't work at all.

'1 uh and a'

I was taught 1 a and a, but wi' my accent uh and a amahnt to t'same thing anyway

Reason for not splitting up time sig counting into 2s and 3s is so that you keep the full appreciation of how a bar is structured, and where you currently are in it.

Counting in groups of 2 and 3 helps me appreciate and feel the structure - before I learnt that I couldn't count unusual time sigs at all and found counting 1 to X to be cumbersome because it gave no hint of the structure. I think it's the ability of this method to help with the accentuation which is useful for me. But then I'm a barely-a-guitarist and barely-a-keyboard player and don't even attempt to play drums

Maybe a drummer has a different perspective on it, maybe it's just that you have a different perspective on it and just happen to also be a drummer.

If you're in 11/8, counting 4 twos and a three, or two fours and a three may totally hide what is happening in the bar, and it's very easy to get lost ('did I just do a four before?'). Admittedly when it gets over 10, I often go alphabetic to keep the syllables down; but often at that point you tend to follow a feel, rather than trying to intuit numerically.

I'm not sure I understand your point about hiding what is happening in the bar, but I'm with you on following the feel. When I was first messing about with the abovementioned acoustic guitar riff I was counting all 13 beats in groups of 2 and 3, now I just feel the long and short pulses that those groupings imply, with no counting of numbers at all.

I might give your alphabetic method a try some time, it sounds interesting. It might work for me, it might not. But I reckon that is the crux of the matter: there are going to be loads of different ways of counting and not every method is going to be helpful to everyone, it's a question of what works for you.

[metafex]

Thanks guys, this does help out a lot...

And I like the record it first approach...and then count it. I think I would get jummbled up if I tried counting while playing.

[Meffy]

Fair warning: Anybody violating the guidelines given in this thread risks having their time signature replaced with the "I broke the KVR time sig rules" graphic.

[Lost_Highway]

Fair warning: Anybody violating the guidelines given in this thread risks having their time signature replaced with the "I broke the KVR time sig rules" graphic.

[duncanparsons]

Fair warning: Anybody violating the guidelines given in this thread risks having their time signature replaced with the "I broke the KVR time sig rules" graphic.

[jancivil]

... why not just speak the accent of the proper number any way.

cause, eg., '7' is a two-syllable word?

[vurt]

... why not just speak the accent of the proper number any way.

cause, eg., '7' is a two-syllable word?

as is four.
in yorkshire anyway, its pronounced foo-eh

[jancivil]

see, I remember when I was little, people would count '7/4' with that se-ven, so it now be 8/4.

Indian musicians tend to locate 'tala' as combos of twos and threes, in any case.


I heard some character on The Sopranos pronounce 'whore' as who-er.

[Rock Hardbuns]

I usually pretty good at this, but this is one that has eluded me for years.

The monkey island theme.
( )

I seems easy at first, but listen to the lead line..

[Tony Ostinato]

3/4: oom pah pah


how does a rock band count 7? one two three four five six se-ven!

[Rock Hardbuns]

3/4: oom pah pah

Keep counting. Try counting it through to the chorus.

Edit: Just looked at some guitar tabs that has it pegged as a 4/4, but that will drift too. I figure that for the correct count, the lead segments should all start at a one.