where next with software instruments?

[SadPuppyBlues]

Clint Ruin, aka Scraping Foetus off the Wheel, aka Jim Thirwell, did it most convincingly on his 1985 album Nail. The Theme and Overture From Pigdom Come are amazing, from a time when samplers were mostly useless.

Strongly disagree here.

That was a great rock album, one of the best examples of 80s kitsch, one of the best industrial albums even of the better era before his own, and also my favorite Thirlwell work. But that was NOT a very dynamic or expressive symphony by almost any standard. On purpose.

Besides, it was more show-tunesy than classical. You're talking about Foetus here, have a sense of humor! On the other hand, statements like this do help to illustrate the nature of your perspective.

[Lunatique]

Clint Ruin, aka Scraping Foetus off the Wheel, aka Jim Thirwell, did it most convincingly on his 1985 album Nail. The Theme and Overture From Pigdom Come are amazing, from a time when samplers were mostly useless.

Strongly disagree here.

That was a great rock album, one of the best examples of 80s kitsch, one of the best industrial albums even of the better era before his own, and also my favorite Thirlwell work. But that was NOT a very dynamic or expressive symphony by almost any standard. On purpose.

Besides, it was more show-tunesy than classical. You're talking about Foetus here, have a sense of humor! On the other hand, statements like this do help to illustrate the nature of your perspective.

I'm a fan of Foetus (and also PIG/Raymond Watt), so I'm no stranger to his work. That track sounds like any other synthesized orchestra track--we hear that kind of stuff in countless video game soundtracks from the past. It sounds nothing like what we can do today with products like Vienna Symphonic library, East West Quantum Leap Symphonic Orchestra, Sonivox Symphonic Collection, or even older libraries by Peter Siedlaczek or Miroslav. It doesn't even surpass Garritan's Personal Orchestra, which is arguably the cheapest and worst library at the moment (it was meant to cater to the low-end).

[kuniklo]

I think we can all agree that you *can* create very expressive and dynamic music with the electronic instruments of today. Let's talk about what we can do to take it to the next level. I'm sure *some* of you must have some concrete ideas.

[zerocrossing]

You're disagreeing with a dictionary? About the standard definition of a word?

Yeah, I know. I'm looking at the common usage of the terms. It may not be technically correct, but it is what it is. For example, referring to Beethoven as a musician is not how he's described, even on classical music stations. I suppose it's less a matter of right or wrong and more about what is commonly understood. Trust me, as an editor, this is not an unusual dichotomy.

I think you're getting lost in meaningless semantics. One my be called a choreographer and not known as a dancer, but that's because the "dancer" part is assumed. Musician is an umbrella term and words like conductor or performer are sub terms that refer to a specific area of expertise.

I think in classical music (this is me riff'n off the top of my head) the music itself is so complex and difficult to write that it's almost a given that their playing would suffer. There are only so many hours in a day and being a virtuoso at an instrument takes most of them.

In modern pop music the music itself is a much simpler form and composer/performers are very common.

[dan_s]

computers can never outdo poeople, and they never have

I guess you haven't seen The Terminator. You will not make it a second past judgment day with that attitude!

[Trusty]

I fail to see anything but alot of 'me/we/us' in all your posts so really the only person your convincing is yourself (oh and your little fanboy 'Trusty' - not your fault man)

Not a fanboy, just calling you out on your feeble attempt at an actual argument. Your nonsensical rant had little to do with the topic. Take your lumps pal. Ad hominem arguments only work in a room full of idiots (and are given by them).

Trusty: I do not Hate BONES and i do infact sometimes agree with him but on this particular topic i beg to differ, if we all did agree on everything all of the time then life would be boring - you muppet

You didn't beg to differ, you tried to be a pompous music snob, with a clear, underlining indignation about what you have yet to accomplish by comparison, despite your "playing" ability.

Anyway, I didn't say you hate BONES, I said you were a hater. And you clearly are. You hater you.

[hakey]

computers outdo people in literally millions of areas.

Well computers can certainly perform some tasks more efficiently than human brains, but are they really better in millions of areas? A million is a big number Boneo - it's literally(!) one thousand one thousands. And as you've written millions (literally) one assume that there must be at least two million 'areas' in which computers outdo people. What are these 'literally millions of areas' of which you speak? Can you even think of literally twenty?

Maybe you could use a computer to check your post for ridiculous statements that make you sound like a right prat!

[kuniklo]

I think in classical music (this is me riff'n off the top of my head) the music itself is so complex and difficult to write that it's almost a given that their playing would suffer. There are only so many hours in a day and being a virtuoso at an instrument takes most of them.

I don't know if this is still the case but the great classical composers were all superb players too. Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms etc.

Perhaps more importantly, a lot of their compositions had a very improvisational nature. I think this can only come from playing.

[warbug]

I think Vsti's are pretty good right but I am going to have to say the user interface..

multi point touch screens The jazz mutant lemur is an awesome concept but pretty much out of everyone's price range.

computer music is missing the interface. I really miss my micromoog mainly because i could turn 2 knobs at once and my hands are much quicker than the mouse.

[Sascha Franck]

People say this a lot but seriously, when do you ever get that? Bands work really hard to ensure a certain consistency in their performances and they keep to what the crowd expects most of the time.

True for "popular" music. But you get a whole lot of variation in, say, jazz. I know, not your style (not exactly mine either, but I do like it ocassionally), but certainly a style worth "existing".
See, I make the vast amount of my income from playing in whatever sort of "cover stuff" arrangements. This includes musicals, an Abba covershow, help-outs for top 40 bands and what not. And I simply hate it that I have to play the same stuff (at least by around 99%) each evening. I'd prefer it much more if I could just jam away for a certain amount of time, especially since the musicians I'm playing with are all top notch. And I know that this is just the same for any sort of "side men" that I know (or met and talked to).
And that's pretty much what most modern live music is lacking of. There's not much interaction, it's all just a certain amount of craftmanship which will be presented more or less 100% the same evening by evening.
And it's also pretty much exactly what I admire with classical players. They don't have that "just jam along" option, but they do have a world of options to vary their "microcosmic" stuff.

[zerocrossing]

I think we can all agree that you *can* create very expressive and dynamic music with the electronic instruments of today. Let's talk about what we can do to take it to the next level. I'm sure *some* of you must have some concrete ideas.

What?! Are you actually trying to get us back on topic!? THE NERVE!

OK, I'll bite.

When I've been able to catch my breath after the hysterics the BONES insights in me (BONES, a lightyear is a unit of distance so does that mean that your thinking doesn't belong in this solar system?) I started thinking "Who's my favorite synth player? Someone who really is amazingly expressive on the instrument.

I couldn't really think of many... hardly any in fact. None that I'd put in my top ten musicians. Why is that?

It's not just me either. I bet if you did a random sampling of people and asked them that question you'd probably come up blank most of the time. I bet they could think of singers, drummers and guitarists though. So, the synth has been out for a long time... Where is it's Hendrix? I use Hendrix as an example because he's not considered the best guitarist by most guitarists, but most often considered one if the icons of rock guitar and a great rock/pop composer. I've never seen him preform but I have seen many films and I've had chills watching them. I've never had a visceral response like that from a synth player. Ever.

So why is that? I'll admit that I got into music because the guitar got my interest. One could argue that's because I was fed a healthy dose of guitar icons to me via the media... but that in itself is telling. By the time I was a teenager ('78) they totally existed but I never really knew of any of them. The odd thing is I was super interested in the sounds that could be created with electronics. More and more guitar effects was my motto. A guitarist I used to play with would joke, "Oh, is that you're guitar? I thought you were shaving in a cave." Later I discovered Adrian Belew and there was a man who was playing synthesizers with his guitar as a controller. I was entranced. That seemed so right to me. The feel and subtile nuance of a guitar with the sonic flexibility of a synth.

I struggled with that technology for years. It's just not right. Too much of a disconnect. It's gotten better but no matter what if feels as if you're playing with mittens on. So I moved to a keyboard. Better than the pitch/midi hex guitar set ups... but there's still something about a traditional keyboard midi controller that just doesn't do it. I don't think it can be communicated to anyone who doesn't play an instrument like guitar (or cello. Hi BONES!) but the expression that you can get just by holding the pick in slightly different ways is something that we don't have yet in keyboard tech. Add to that what can be done with hammer-on technique, sliding, bending, wammy AND all the real time performance effects that can be controlled as well... There's just a level of visceral feel that I have not found in any keyboard or synth. I've worked in music stores for years so it's not like I've not been exposed to great instruments. I've learned to enjoy my keyboard with it's xy controller, aftertouch, wheels, buttons and knobs but if I found a guitar controller that had perfect tracking of even the most subtile nuance of a performance I'd toss that keyboard right out the window.

I think that's why guitar is so much more popular than keyboard. There's something so right about the interface. It works for a human on some root level. You can argue all you want but go into any big music store and you'll find 200 different guitar models and about a dozen different keyboards. My friends 2 year old (all id) would come into my house and with all the keyboard stuff around he makes a beeline to the guitar and is obsessed with it. He's got a real Yamaha keyboard (his mom plays) at home but his mom tells me that he's barely interested in it and he shows no sign of interest in mine either. He's a bit interested in the Handsonic as well, but nothing compared to the joy he gets when we sit on the couch with the guitar on our laps and he picks and pulls at those strings. I think that's really telling. There's something so base about it that even a 2 year old can instantly get it.

Until controller technology finally gets it, I'll deal with my Novations and Roland Handsonic. I think they're on the right track, but not perfect yet. I think the technology exists but there's probably not economic incentive enough to mass produce them to a point where they'd be available to the average player. As far as synthesis goes, I feel that my pallet is so full at this point that aside from quality increases I could care less if any new forms of synthesis come along in my lifetime.

[kuniklo]

I started thinking "Who's my favorite synth player? Someone who really is amazingly expressive on the instrument.

I couldn't really think of many... hardly any in fact.

It's difficult, isn't it? I think some of the things Autechre have done with realtime performance with drum machines on their last two albums are *incredible* (check the track "Iera" from Untilted), but they fall on their faces 7 times out of 10 even at that. I think they have at least realized that bringing the real time, human element back into electronic music is the key to moving the music forward. Despite what some techno-fetishists might believe, nothing man made is going to even approach the magnificent complexity of the human brain any time soon.

I think that's why guitar is so much more popular than keyboard. There's something so right about the interface.

Agreed. Something like that, but even more flexible, would be ideal. Some kind of physical, tactile feedback coupled to three or four realtime controllers that can interact with each other in non-linear ways. I think some very interesting things could be done with our good old friend the mouse if we freed it from the shackles of clicking and dragging on little virtual knobs.

[Lunatique]

I started thinking "Who's my favorite synth player? Someone who really is amazingly expressive on the instrument.

I couldn't really think of many... hardly any in fact. None that I'd put in my top ten musicians. Why is that?

Same here. As much as I think Jordan Rudess is amazing, his playing is all related to his piano chops--there's nothing really relating to synths in his performance, except the way he splits the keys or uses combi patches.

I adore Sakamoto Ryuichi, but it's the same with him. He plays the piano beautifully and can jam on the synth like it's nobody business, but he also doesn't seem to use synths in a very expressive manner either--except maybe making it sound like a distorted electric guitar.

So why aren't synth players pushing things more with their live performances? Are they all so spoiled by sequencers and MIDI that they no longer bother trying to be expressive while performing in real-time?

On the other hand, I can name a bunch of bass, guitar, drum, harmonica, cello, violin, trumpet, sax, piano...etc players that I really love, and their performances trump all over any synth performance I've ever seen. That just doesn't seem right to me. We all love synths here at KVR yet we can't name a synth player we really love?

[Meffy]

Some guy whose name begins with "V"... very expressive playing... nobody ever seems to ask how to sound like him any more. What was that name? Vangoghless? Vancustomizer? No, can't recall.

[buscemi]

Some guy whose name begins with "V"... very expressive playing... nobody ever seems to ask how to sound like him any more. What was that name? Vangoghless? Vancustomizer? No, can't recall.

I think it was this guy, "Vanfreecandy":