where next with software instruments?

[Meffy]

Probably the one, yes.

[AdeVanEx]

Do we count keyboard players

http://www.philbrodieband.com/muso_solo ... rdists.htm

[jonnyG]

Some guy whose name begins with "V"... very expressive playing... nobody ever seems to ask how to sound like him any more. What was that name? Vangoghless? Vancustomizer? No, can't recall.

Van Halen?

This thread has a lot of layers under it's simple question...

1) Where next with synths? -

Probably more of the same. More flashy guis, bigger rompler libraries, more faithful recreations of old hardwhere, moere physical modelling (hopefully taking the Revalver idea to it's logical conclusion so that we can build synths at component level in a realtime Spice program )
Complex probably isn't the answer tho. take the dumb little 303. Why is it so popular? Because it's simple, yet the way the controls interact with each other makes it expressive.

2) where next with the interface between the synth and the player? -

a) Hardware. Keyboards don't do it for everyone. I'm primaraly a (not very good) guitar player - but I can get the ideas that are in my head down far easier with a guitar than I can with a keyboard. Practice is the key here, but I want results now... Add to that the fact that decent and innovative hardware that isn't made in China out of recycled youhurt pots still commands top dollar. Also there still isn't a 100% workable guitar to MIDI solution (IMHO) - part of the problem being the MIDI spec, which wasn't envisaged with such things in mind. Finally, when was the last time you saw a a keyboard player fronting a band? It's just not rock 'n roll.

b) Software. What do people want, a program that writes their tunes for them already? *winks*
I hope not, but there could be possibilities to aid creativity. I spent a lot of time in bands and just jamming and chucking around ideas is very productive. Electronic musicians are very often solo artists who don't get the chance / don't want to just jam, so their chops can get stale. I can forsee intelligent software that could be loaded with music theory, mebbe famous player's chops / timing nuances / genres etc and the ability to interact with the person using it. V1 would probably sound the the Bosso Nova button on a Yamaha keyboard and depending on who did the programming it could sound hideously generic, but in the right hands as a training and compositional tool it's an obvious progression. "Tonight Matthew, I'm going to be Aphex Twin."
Seriously, how many times have we heard a tune and thought "Jeez, I could have done that, if only I'd thought of it first." Sometimes all we need is a shovel to dig us out of the rut.

Of course, in the meantime we could all just practice. Remember, our software hosts are as much a musical instrument as the VSTi's and hardware. Remember also that music is a form of communication. Communication implies interaction between people. If we don't know a little of the syntax it just ends up as big dumb noises that no-one else understands.

[Meffy]

Some guy whose name begins with "V"... very expressive playing... nobody ever seems to ask how to sound like him any more. What was that name? Vangoghless? Vancustomizer? No, can't recall.

Van Halen?

*snerk*

[Howard]

I think the technology exists but there's probably not economic incentive enough to mass produce them to a point where they'd be available to the average player.

Yep. Cheap mass production is for the masses who can't play. Look at what's practically disappeared (or never became very popular in the first place): poly-aftertouch, breath controllers, Ondes Martenot...

[Sascha Franck]

Look at what's practically disappeared (or never became very popular in the first place): poly-aftertouch, breath controllers, Ondes Martenot...

The Synthaxe (god, I wish I could afford one...).

[Dean Aka Nekro]

I fail to see anything but alot of 'me/we/us' in all your posts so really the only person your convincing is yourself (oh and your little fanboy 'Trusty' - not your fault man)

Not a fanboy, just calling you out on your feeble attempt at an actual argument. Your nonsensical rant had little to do with the topic. Take your lumps pal. Ad hominem arguments only work in a room full of idiots (and are given by them).

Trusty: I do not Hate BONES and i do infact sometimes agree with him but on this particular topic i beg to differ, if we all did agree on everything all of the time then life would be boring - you muppet

You didn't beg to differ, you tried to be a pompous music snob, with a clear, underlining indignation about what you have yet to accomplish by comparison, despite your "playing" ability.

Anyway, I didn't say you hate BONES, I said you were a hater. And you clearly are. You hater you.

Wrong, Wrong, Wrong Fanboy a pompous music snob: the depravity and depth's of vile music i listen to are anything but. The session's i engineer on are anything but and when playing my outdated and obsolete electric guitar with fellow musicians are anything but. By what comparison do you measure? Since you know nothing about me or what i have or have not accomplished

My 'feeble attempt at an actual argument' was fact: BONES even wrote most of it out for me in this very thread - all i did was rewrite what he states as his method of creating and then replaying 'Music Live To A Paying Audience' (fair enough i added in exactly what i think of such methods because that really is how i see it and you fanboy will not change my opinion) but if he and his 'band' can get away with it, are happy, please an audience and make money from it then that i have no problem with - it does not affect me in any way at all.

What i do have a problem with is his and your narrow minded one dimensional view of other peoples method's, skill's and the really sad 'synth supremacy' crap which sounds like a broken record and to me is poppycock, bullshine, cobblers...along with the 'Computer's Rule The World' rubbish Too many fantasy films and video games.

I said before i really got nothing else to say and quite frankly you and your pathetic attempts of what exactly? borg me to death

[BONES]

But that was NOT a very dynamic or expressive symphony by almost any standard. On purpose.

Of course it is. It has all the classical elements of tension and release, etc. It builds beautifully and whilst you would never mistake it for a real orchestra, as an orchestral piece it stands up well.

That track sounds like any other synthesized orchestra track--we hear that kind of stuff in countless video game soundtracks from the past. It sounds nothing like what we can do today with products like Vienna Symphonic library, East West Quantum Leap Symphonic Orchestra, Sonivox Symphonic Collection, or even older libraries by Peter Siedlaczek or Miroslav. It doesn't even surpass Garritan's Personal Orchestra, which is arguably the cheapest and worst library at the moment (it was meant to cater to the low-end).

That's because you want to sound exactly like an orchestra, for some weird reason, where he was just creating an orchestral piece. He used the medium to go somewhere that he could not have gone before, without becoming a slave to it. Because he was concentrating on the piece itself, he was able to pull it off really well. That is fits in well around a bunch of full-tilt rock makes it an even more amazing achievement. It has been my all-time favourite album for 20 years and doesn't look like being knocked off the podium any time soon.

What are these 'literally millions of areas' of which you speak? Can you even think of literally twenty?

20 would be easy but I'll give you just a couple to fire your imagination. Co-ordinated traffic control and air-defense. Even flying is something computers can do infinitely better than people. Running telephone exchanges would be another off the top of my head. Matching finger-prints or DNA samples. Collecting tolls on motorways. Run with those kinds of things and you'll get to a million pretty quickly.

computer music is missing the interface. I really miss my micromoog mainly because i could turn 2 knobs at once and my hands are much quicker than the mouse.

Isn't that why we can choose from dozens, if not hundreds, of controllers? My KB37 actually has more knobs on it than most hardware synths I've ever owned and it is a very basic device.

I bet they could think of singers, drummers and guitarists though. So, the synth has been out for a long time...

But if you asked them about favourite DJs or MCs, you'd probably get a decent response, which kind of spoils your argument, really. If you asked me, I'd have a longer list of synth players than vocalists, drummers or guitarists, simply because its my thing. In fact, let's do it:

Guitarists I admire:
- John McGeoch
- Andy Gill
- Robin Simon
- Geordie Walker

Drummers I admire:
- Rob Hirst [despite his politics]
- The drummer from a band called the Jones [from Canberra in the mid 80s]
- Jet Black

Vocalists I admire:
- Jim Thirwell
- Douglas McCarthy
- Jean-Luc Demeyer

Synth Players I admire:
- John Foxx
- Billy Currie
- Andrew Duffield
- Dave Formula
- Michael MacNeill
- Steve Skolnik
- Claus Larsen
- all three members of Our Daughters Wedding
- Dave Greenfield

And the last list took the least amount of time to think up and I didn't have to resort to the obviosu ones like Jarre or Vangelis, who do nothing for me.

but the expression that you can get just by holding the pick in slightly different ways is something that we don't have yet in keyboard tech. Add to that what can be done with hammer-on technique, sliding, bending, wammy AND all the real time performance effects that can be controlled as well... There's just a level of visceral feel that I have not found in any keyboard or synth. I've worked in music stores for years so it's not like I've not been exposed to great instruments. I've learned to enjoy my keyboard with it's xy controller, aftertouch, wheels, buttons and knobs but if I found a guitar controller that had perfect tracking of even the most subtile nuance of a performance I'd toss that keyboard right out the window.

That may be true of your experience whilst playing, which is perfectly valid. But if you look at the result of holding your pick in a certain way, I don't see it as being any different from adjusting the cutoff and resonance to a certain value. Again, the process is just different, not inherently less useful or expressive. [Its a lot easier to use the Mod Wheel to change cutoff than to constantly vary the way you hold your pick whilst playing.]

What i do have a problem with is his and your narrow minded one dimensional view of other peoples method's, skill's and the really sad 'synth supremacy' crap which sounds like a broken record and to me is poppycock, bullshine, cobblers...along with the 'Computer's Rule The World' rubbish Too many fantasy films and video games.

I have no idea how you draw such conclusions. I'm sure we have very different tastes in films too but that's not to say that the films you like a re rubbish and the ones I like are good, or vice versa. Taste is not something you have much say in. Some musical things that connect with you leave me cold. Its just a fact, not something that I can change, nor would I if I could. you hear some great virtuoso performance and it makes you feel good, I hear the same performance and am left completely unmoved. That you feel that makes you somehow superior, and that's what comes across in your posts, definitely makes you appear pompous.
Even things that we both appreciate, we almost certainly appreciate for different reasons. Its just the way things are.

[Dean Aka Nekro]

I think we can all agree that you *can* create very expressive and dynamic music with the electronic instruments of today. Let's talk about what we can do to take it to the next level. I'm sure *some* of you must have some concrete ideas.

What?! Are you actually trying to get us back on topic!? THE NERVE!

OK, I'll bite.

When I've been able to catch my breath after the hysterics the BONES insights in me (BONES, a lightyear is a unit of distance so does that mean that your thinking doesn't belong in this solar system?) I started thinking "Who's my favorite synth player? Someone who really is amazingly expressive on the instrument.

I couldn't really think of many... hardly any in fact. None that I'd put in my top ten musicians. Why is that?

It's not just me either. I bet if you did a random sampling of people and asked them that question you'd probably come up blank most of the time. I bet they could think of singers, drummers and guitarists though. So, the synth has been out for a long time... Where is it's Hendrix? I use Hendrix as an example because he's not considered the best guitarist by most guitarists, but most often considered one if the icons of rock guitar and a great rock/pop composer. I've never seen him preform but I have seen many films and I've had chills watching them. I've never had a visceral response like that from a synth player. Ever.

So why is that? I'll admit that I got into music because the guitar got my interest. One could argue that's because I was fed a healthy dose of guitar icons to me via the media... but that in itself is telling. By the time I was a teenager ('78) they totally existed but I never really knew of any of them. The odd thing is I was super interested in the sounds that could be created with electronics. More and more guitar effects was my motto. A guitarist I used to play with would joke, "Oh, is that you're guitar? I thought you were shaving in a cave." Later I discovered Adrian Belew and there was a man who was playing synthesizers with his guitar as a controller. I was entranced. That seemed so right to me. The feel and subtile nuance of a guitar with the sonic flexibility of a synth.

I struggled with that technology for years. It's just not right. Too much of a disconnect. It's gotten better but no matter what if feels as if you're playing with mittens on. So I moved to a keyboard. Better than the pitch/midi hex guitar set ups... but there's still something about a traditional keyboard midi controller that just doesn't do it. I don't think it can be communicated to anyone who doesn't play an instrument like guitar (or cello. Hi BONES!) but the expression that you can get just by holding the pick in slightly different ways is something that we don't have yet in keyboard tech. Add to that what can be done with hammer-on technique, sliding, bending, wammy AND all the real time performance effects that can be controlled as well... There's just a level of visceral feel that I have not found in any keyboard or synth. I've worked in music stores for years so it's not like I've not been exposed to great instruments. I've learned to enjoy my keyboard with it's xy controller, aftertouch, wheels, buttons and knobs but if I found a guitar controller that had perfect tracking of even the most subtile nuance of a performance I'd toss that keyboard right out the window.

I think that's why guitar is so much more popular than keyboard. There's something so right about the interface. It works for a human on some root level. You can argue all you want but go into any big music store and you'll find 200 different guitar models and about a dozen different keyboards. My friends 2 year old (all id) would come into my house and with all the keyboard stuff around he makes a beeline to the guitar and is obsessed with it. He's got a real Yamaha keyboard (his mom plays) at home but his mom tells me that he's barely interested in it and he shows no sign of interest in mine either. He's a bit interested in the Handsonic as well, but nothing compared to the joy he gets when we sit on the couch with the guitar on our laps and he picks and pulls at those strings. I think that's really telling. There's something so base about it that even a 2 year old can instantly get it.

Until controller technology finally gets it, I'll deal with my Novations and Roland Handsonic. I think they're on the right track, but not perfect yet. I think the technology exists but there's probably not economic incentive enough to mass produce them to a point where they'd be available to the average player. As far as synthesis goes, I feel that my pallet is so full at this point that aside from quality increases I could care less if any new forms of synthesis come along in my lifetime.

Guess im gonna have to go fanboy on ya zerocrossing (dont worry its not love just yet ) That whole statement rings as clear as a bell too me and i simply can not find shit in their i disagree with or have not come across myself. Apart from Racer-X/Paul Gilbert was one of the main reason's i picked up a guitar along with Jeff Waters from Annihilator (Tony Iommi, Kerry King and Jeff Hanemann go without saying for me - tis what i grew up with in the cassette player and is sort of in my blackend heart forever whether i like it or not )

[Trusty]

I fail to see anything but alot of 'me/we/us' in all your posts so really the only person your convincing is yourself (oh and your little fanboy 'Trusty' - not your fault man)

Not a fanboy, just calling you out on your feeble attempt at an actual argument. Your nonsensical rant had little to do with the topic. Take your lumps pal. Ad hominem arguments only work in a room full of idiots (and are given by them).

Trusty: I do not Hate BONES and i do infact sometimes agree with him but on this particular topic i beg to differ, if we all did agree on everything all of the time then life would be boring - you muppet

You didn't beg to differ, you tried to be a pompous music snob, with a clear, underlining indignation about what you have yet to accomplish by comparison, despite your "playing" ability.

Anyway, I didn't say you hate BONES, I said you were a hater. And you clearly are. You hater you.

Wrong, Wrong, Wrong Fanboy a pompous music snob: the depravity and depth's of vile music i listen to are anything but. The session's i engineer on are anything but and when playing my outdated and obsolete electric guitar with fellow musicians are anything but. By what comparison do you measure? Since you know nothing about me or what i have or have not accomplished

My 'feeble attempt at an actual argument' was fact: BONES even wrote most of it out for me in this very thread - all i did was rewrite what he states as his method of creating and then replaying 'Music Live To A Paying Audience' (fair enough i added in exactly what i think of such methods because that really is how i see it and you fanboy will not change my opinion) but if he and his 'band' can get away with it, are happy, please an audience and make money from it then that i have no problem with - it does not affect me in any way at all.

What i do have a problem with is his and your narrow minded one dimensional view of other peoples method's, skill's and the really sad 'synth supremacy' crap which sounds like a broken record and to me is poppycock, bullshine, cobblers...along with the 'Computer's Rule The World' rubbish Too many fantasy films and video games.

I said before i really got nothing else to say and quite frankly you and your pathetic attempts of what exactly? borg me to death

Man, just how stupid are you exactly? I am sure all that was a response to something, but certainly not anything I said.

The tone of your first post you made that I responded to spoke volumes about what you have not accomplished in your life considering your dismissal of BONES, which shows bitterness that only comes from jealousy and being a hater.

So no revision or back-peddling now will change who you are as you present yourself on the kvr. I don't have to know you, just know what you say.

More to the point, I never said I have one view or another about musicians, computers, composing and writing methods, or anything else in your non-response above (that is between you and BONES).

If you actually bothered to read my post, you would have seen that I am a trumpet player...which pre-dates electric guitars as an instrument, and shows your comprehension skills sorely lacking, which is how you come up with absurd, off-target responses.

Why respond without the ability to follow? So, once again, your strawman exposes your lack of reasoning abilities. Try again, as I am sure you will...but at least try to stay focused and actually respond to what I say, and not some strawman you wish to burn since it seems about all you can handle.

[Dean Aka Nekro]

What i do have a problem with is his and your narrow minded one dimensional view of other peoples method's, skill's and the really sad 'synth supremacy' crap which sounds like a broken record and to me is poppycock, bullshine, cobblers...along with the 'Computer's Rule The World' rubbish Too many fantasy films and video games.

I have no idea how you draw such conclusions. I'm sure we have very different tastes in films too but that's not to say that the films you like a re rubbish and the ones I like are good, or vice versa. Taste is not something you have much say in. Some musical things that connect with you leave me cold. Its just a fact, not something that I can change, nor would I if I could. you hear some great virtuoso performance and it makes you feel good, I hear the same performance and am left completely unmoved. That you feel that makes you somehow superior, and that's what comes across in your posts, definitely makes you appear pompous.
Even things that we both appreciate, we almost certainly appreciate for different reasons. Its just the way things are.

I really do not see myself as superior and if my post's do come across as such then it really is unintended that way. What i wanted and have actually said is that yourself and me have clashing opinions and really i am happy to agree to disagree with you BONES. Also virtuoso is not really what moves me either, bands that grab/grabbed my attention along with names i have already mentioned include:

Celtic Frost
Voivod
Crowbar
Kreator
Candlemass
Godflesh
Death
Bathory
EyeHateGod
Darkthrone
Iron Monkey
Carcass
Napalm Death
Entombed
...I wont go on and on but you get the picture and hardly any could be described as virtuoso

Really i am down to earth, my ego simply does not exist and i am lucky to be making a living (just about! at best) as an engineer. I guess the internet is a real bad way for me to communicate with people because their is no facial expression or tone of voice behind row upon row of text.

[fabi]

I really do not see myself as superior and if my post's do come across as such then it really is unintended that way.
[...]
Really i am down to earth, my ego simply does not exist and i am lucky to be making a living (just about! at best) as an engineer. I guess the internet is a real bad way for me to communicate with people because their is no facial expression or tone of voice behind row upon row of text.

That may be true, but your posts really dripped of what could hardly be taken as anything but arrogance.

It's not really a big deal, though. I know what it can be like on teh kvr and how easily one can get carried away.


btw, not to be rude, but about a dozen pages ago you wrote 'upmost' instead of 'utmost'. i don't quite remember the context, but it should be with a T if you mean something like 'I have the utmost respect for your craft,' or something like that.

[BONES]

Really i am down to earth, my ego simply does not exist and i am lucky to be making a living (just about! at best) as an engineer. I guess the internet is a real bad way for me to communicate with people because their is no facial expression or tone of voice behind row upon row of text.

Don't worry about it, mate. I cop it constantly and you just have to take it for what it is and be aware that its almost impossible not to come across like that when you are expressing an opinion about something you hold dear. I rarely respond to those kinds of comments any more.

[mcnoone]

Man I really liked what johnnyG had to say about this topic. Then a few good posts and back to ranting, fighting, arguments. Will it end please?
Drop the ego bs. I think johnnyG hit the future of computer music right on the head. Only when we see a new kind of computer, will we see a real change in anything.
Maybe if i buy one of these, my music won't sound like shiet.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/02/09 ... irst_demo/

[SadPuppyBlues]

Thirlwell. With three Ls.

He wrote good pop music that suits Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles to an UNCANNY degree with that album.
But it is, by design, a very static sound. Please understand I'm not saying it's any less a work of art, just that he did something brilliant with a very limited range of expression. Of course, like I've said, this kinda argument really does show your bias.