where next with software instruments?

[Dean Aka Nekro]

Field recordings is one area where factory and industrialized environments have (*not sure on this but probably still do*) exploit the the machinery/mechanical sounds which aciddose is referring to if i am right? but it is again an area i know little about and could not name any names

*Working in a warehouse full of automated machinery is so damned loud when you start but it soon becomes like background noise yet each machine will have its own pattern of noise and sometimes very rhythmic*

*I refer to a printing works before digital machinery superseded most of the machines which were used and remember it involved racking up lots of type faces using what is like a giant typewriter type font block and filling the spaces with blank blocks around inside wooden frames in standard paper sizes: best way i can explain it as i did not myself work their but a good family friend owned/owns the business so i remember going there regular when i was younger, maybe my memory is a little fuzzy and he has now been able to sell the building and work from home due to the vast downscaling which newer technology has allowed for - and i still go and see him regular and it is really not so noisy now compared to what i remember the much larger premises being and i really know little about all the machines*

I wish i that i had one of those great little handheld SD samplers back then when i was so young

Does anybody know of any sample library which is made up of actual sampled machinery? or a particular field recording artist who's work is based upon this factory/mechanical environment. I would really appreciate it

BTW: appologies for going off topic and again anything i posted which was pointless and flame like or pompous/arrogant sounding

I checked out some of your work BONES and some of the bands/artists which you posted who's work in the same vein of music which you do and after listening to it i retract my derogatory comment's flown your way, it again is a genre i know nothing about and your method's actually make alot of sense after i listened to some of it. Again i learned something new today

Dean

[pdxindy]

and that opens up a whole new discussion of "just what is electronic music?"

I'm still holding on to a very slim hope of this thread actually producing something useful, so for the purposes of this discussion let's not worry about definitions and just focus on what we'd like to see happen with software instruments.

more development on macro parameters, 'physical modeling' in the broad sense, and better physical controllers for working with the software instruments

that is what I would like to see

[kuniklo]

more development on macro parameters, physical modeling' in the broad sense, and better physical controllers for working with the software instruments

that is what I would like to see

I'd like to see better physical controllers too. The expense of improving things in this respect makes me skeptical that we're going to see much happen there but maybe with things like Kore out, with quality controllers and no dependence on midi, there's some hope.

I also think that a mouse could be a pretty musical controller if it were used with the right kind of interface. It's relatively cheap to try totally new visual interfaces in software so hopefully we'll see something interesting there. Maybe it will have to wait until we're all so saturated with the current crop of plugins that we won't buy any more.

[EkleipSiS]

just listen to any modern electronic album - what do you have? a combination of tribal percussion with mechanical and mechanical melodies. what does that hoover pad sound most like in the real world, for example? a chain saw? a fast moving belt driven machine with some sort of blades attached at least, it sounds the least like a vacuum cleaner.

the first thing i'm reminded of when hearing modern quality electronic (it is very easy if you get the drift to understand what i'm referring to here as "not quality") is mecha of some sort, industrial machines and robotics. if you've never worked out running excavators, bulldozers and that sort of stuff or you've never been inside automated factories it might be hard to understand. i'm sure you can find some youtube video of that sort of stuff though.

we've definitely embraced it, even if not consciously.

Hmmm true but i feel that most of the electronic sounds people like is in some sort of trend...fashion...supersaw lead,909 808 kicks...etc.Most of them need to relate with that...they need this to be familiar.As soon as its too different and in unknown territory im not sure they embrace it that much.
Take Autechre ,a band i highly respect in terms of sound design,originality and closeness to some organical mechanical sounding things or Richard Devine wich is the perfect analogy to industrial machinery sounds since he uses mainly that to create his stuff...well those bands are still only known to really specific people and most people would consider this only noise and too weird and crazy to listen too.Im not saying everybody should like that though...just asking myself if people are really interested in really different sounds than those from popular bands.

[Dean Aka Nekro]

Hardly knowing anything about electronic music myself, but i actually know who Autechre are, own most of their records and have seen them live. The three albums i really enjoy by them are Amber, Confield and Draft 7:30

A few more electronic based artist's/band's i like include:

Scorn
Godflesh/Justin Broderick
Merzbow

Will checkout Richard Devine

Cheers

Dean

[BONES]

After-touch on most controllers is crap... on the few controllers where it functions like an actual controllable range, it is still crude compared to the subtlety of breath while playing a flute. And then AT has the limitation that you have to keep one finger pressed down on one key to use the controller continuously.

You cannot possibly be serious, can you? Its not like the flute player can stop breathing or take his hands off the valves and the flute will keep playing wither. That is the stupidest thing I've read this week.

The modwheel takes one hand away from playing and it is basically an unrefined tool with not many gradations. And the expression pedal is also crude, really not smooth in its gradations, and does not allow subtle swift changes fluidly. And I have a keyboard controller with some of the best AT around, I use the modwheel extensively, and I have a couple foot pedals that I also have mapped to various presets. I use these tools, and I also see how limited they are compared to 'analog' tools like my breath, or a bow on the string or hand on the drum.

Maybe you just haven't put the same time and effort into mastering each? because I'm pretty sure I can get a lot more subtlety out of my synth that I could out of a flute.
You see, if you really believe that a Mod Wheel is too stepped, which I have to say I have never, ever found with anything I have ever used it on, it shouldn't be an issue. The good thing is that it can be targeted to the appropriate range. i.e. I can make it sensitive enough that its full range of movement could be confined to just one cent, or ten octaves. Its as smooth as I need it to be.

When I play my flute, both my hands are free to play notes, and my breath controls the sound with an intuitive subtlety that crude keyboard controllers do not come close to.

Now I know you're just yanking my chain. You can't even play the simplest two note chord with both hands. I only need one finger to play a single note, you need both freakin' hands. Its a joke! Of course, I don't need breath control because I can programme the sound to work just the way I want it to without having to do any of that krap. I can put a hell of a lot more subtlety and variation than you could ever hope to put into anything with a flute.

There is not one keyboard controller on the market today that has the specs I would choose. If anything, controllers have gone backwards in recent years.

Again, I'd suggest that's because we have moved on and have better ways of being expressive now.

Synths now have the capacity to sound like an entire orchestra, plus a whole lot more, but we do not have interfaces that come even vaguely close to the range of input devices of that orchestra. How many keyboard controllers even have a breath control input?

How many need to? I wouldn't buy one that did if I could get a cheaper one that didn't. You only need one that does and your argument falls into a heap.

The modwheel has 128 steps, as do key velocity, AT, etc. Most keyboards do not even make good use of them. Go look at the CC data.

128 steps is more than enough when you can target it. How many notes can you play on your flute? I certainly couldn't get by with the octave range of a flute for anything.

Then go into the guitar shop and look at all the time and history put into the action of the guitar, different shape of the neck, fretboard, different types of strings, bridge height, etc. and any old guitar shop has such variety and every guitar player comes in and tries different instruments. They are not just trying out the sound, but also the 'controller interface'.
Compare that to synths... geez...

Yes, they are rather lacking compared to synths. Your problem is that you are comparing apples to oranges. The things a guitarist looks for in a guitar determine how it sounds. The things that determine how a synth sounds are completely different. If you put the same electrics into two guitars as different in form as a Triton from a microX, they would sound completely different, yet those two synths have exactly teh same engine and can sound identical. How is this not completely obvious?

[BONES]

Anyway, the pdxindy's post, dissected above, illustrates perfectly a thought I had this morning. I think a lot of the problem with the perception of electronic music is that there is no basis for comparison. When you see a cello, you know roughly what sort of sound it can make. When you hear someone do something extraordinary with it, it stands out.
OTOH, electronic music is mostly extraordinary all the time, in that there are so many amazing sounds and the quality of production is so high. But there is nothing for us to benchmark it against, so it becomes the normal standard, the average, which makes it very hard for something to stand out. But if you take my microX and compare it to any instrument in an orchestra, it leaves them all for dead. In fact, it gives the full orchestra a run for its money in every way. OK, it only has a two-octave keyboard but it can produce a range of octaves very few acoustic instruments could match, and it can do them all at once. It can be set-up in a toilet and still output sound like its coming from a concert hall. The length and breadth of its capabilities puts an orchestra to shame. It can be incredibly subtle or totally full-on.
It is nothing short of a revelation.
Trouble is, revelations are a dime a dozen here in electronic music land, a fact which a lot of people seem to miss because they are too focused on the minutae to take in the big picture. Maybe I'm lucky that I never cease to be amazed by the possibilities arrayed in front of me? Seems unlikely though, as no-one's ever really accused me of being a "glass half-full" kind of guy, if you know what I mean. Which only leaves the probability that you guys are all just idiots. Its the only logical conclusion, really.

[dover666]

here here.

i'm waiting for my hardware to come back, so i can interface it with my laptop and two desktops... and then i'll really be groovin out. i LOVE MODWHEEL!!
the ribbon controller with the velocity/pitch/tempo slider on the esx kicks ass. plus i'm owed like two or three midi controllers, so we'll see what happens there. the microX you're reffere=ing too, is that the thing i drool over at musicians friend... that little sexy beast?? i think my boss might get me a toy, since i'm such a positive studyer and potential source of a tonne of income... (okay, i just looked at korg site... it's not the one i was thinking of... but damn, it would fit right in with my other korgs... i could have an even bigger korgy than i do know)

[pdxindy]

Anyway, the pdxindy's post, dissected above, illustrates perfectly a thought I had this morning. I think a lot of the problem with the perception of electronic music is that there is no basis for comparison. When you see a cello, you know roughly what sort of sound it can make. When you hear someone do something extraordinary with it, it stands out.
OTOH, electronic music is mostly extraordinary all the time, in that there are so many amazing sounds and the quality of production is so high. But there is nothing for us to benchmark it against, so it becomes the normal standard, the average, which makes it very hard for something to stand out. But if you take my microX and compare it to any instrument in an orchestra, it leaves them all for dead. In fact, it gives the full orchestra a run for its money in every way. OK, it only has a two-octave keyboard but it can produce a range of octaves very few acoustic instruments could match, and it can do them all at once. It can be set-up in a toilet and still output sound like its coming from a concert hall. The length and breadth of its capabilities puts an orchestra to shame. It can be incredibly subtle or totally full-on.
It is nothing short of a revelation.
Trouble is, revelations are a dime a dozen here in electronic music land, a fact which a lot of people seem to miss because they are too focused on the minutae to take in the big picture. Maybe I'm lucky that I never cease to be amazed by the possibilities arrayed in front of me? Seems unlikely though, as no-one's ever really accused me of being a "glass half-full" kind of guy, if you know what I mean. Which only leaves the probability that you guys are all just idiots. Its the only logical conclusion, really.

hehehe... you're such a clown...

by your reckoning, I can then say my iPod is way better than all your synths combined. It can do everything your synths can do and is much easier to play...

[Lunatique]

Trouble is, revelations are a dime a dozen here in electronic music land, a fact which a lot of people seem to miss because they are too focused on the minutae to take in the big picture. Maybe I'm lucky that I never cease to be amazed by the possibilities arrayed in front of me? Seems unlikely though, as no-one's ever really accused me of being a "glass half-full" kind of guy, if you know what I mean. Which only leaves the probability that you guys are all just idiots. Its the only logical conclusion, really.

Difference of values and priorities and tastes does not = difference of intelligence. Why do you always feel the need to use some kind of insult? If you look down on us all, why do you even bother conversing with us intellectually inferior idiots?

You seem to forget the fact that many of us at KVR are very passionate about electronic music and synths--in fact that's one of the most obvious things about the average KVR member. We are in this discussion because we give a shit--because we are looking to the future to see how things could ideally evolve. It would be delusional to think that nothing will change in the next few decades--things always evolve, whether you like it or not. When the massive hardware samplers and modulars where popular back in the day, some people probably thought that was it--they have everything now. But look at how far we've advanced since then--maybe not in ways that are desirable or even important to some, but for many of us, it's a giant leap forward in terms of power, efficiency, ergonomics, convenience, choice...etc. While it's common knowledge that any of us who's been around long enough to have dealt with the archaic production methods only a decade or two ago, and that we are all very grateful and impressed by what we have today, there's no reason why we can't still look forward to the future. Looking forward does not mean we can't see what we have today or know how to utilize what we have today. There are probably members in this thread who are more knowledgeable and talented and skilled than you are in many ways, including working with synths and sequencers, yet obviously some of them do not agree there's no room for improvement, and they do not agree that the synth and its controllers are the end all, be all, or are superior to acoustic instrument in every way imaginable.

Drop the insults and accept that there are different values, priorities, and tastes--yours is NOT the correct one or the best one--it's simply yours. It does not make others idiots.

[hakey]

you guys are all just idiots

I'm not sure what it was - maybe your arrogance, the long, rambling, posts with little content, your po-faced presentation of opinion and ridiculous exaggerations as fact and corresponding unwillingness to consider anybody else's view, or perhaps it's just the sun glasses - but I had long come to the opinion that it is you that is the idiot Bones, and I get the feeling that I'm not the only one.

(For those who haven't yet checked it out Bones' website might be worth a look. OTOH, if you find that feeling pity or acute embarrassment on behalf of middle-aged men who, via the medium of music, teh internets and 'cyber-wear', make themselves look like complete twats is at all disagreeable, then you should probably give it a miss.)

[dan_s]

It can be set-up in a concert hall and still output sound like its coming from a toilet.

now thats the next level in software instruments!

[tehlord]

you guys are all just idiots

I'm not sure what it was - maybe your arrogance, the long, rambling, posts with little content, your po-faced presentation of opinion and ridiculous exaggerations as fact and corresponding unwillingness to consider anybody else's view, or perhaps it's just the sun glasses - but I had long come to the opinion that it is you that is the idiot Bones, and I get the feeling that I'm not the only one.

(For those who haven't yet checked it out Bones' website might be worth a look. OTOH, if you find that feeling pity or acute embarrassment on behalf of middle-aged men who, via the medium of music, teh internets and 'cyber-wear', make themselves look like complete twats is at all disagreeable, then you should probably give it a miss.)

I laughed so hard I think a little poo came out.

[jonnyG]

What the flying linoleum does any of this (amusing though it is) have to do with the future of software instruments?

the "little poo" line made me lol though...

[dover666]

um... some twat was prattling on about guitars or something... made me want to go get independence free again... since i didn't have it, i figured i'd re-it. ey bitches, bones is the shit. just cause he's angry don't mean you have to get all personal. at least he keeps it general. whoever was going on about guitars. c**t off. i make software synths, hardware synths and guitars. guitars are for cavemen. the future of software synths (and hardware synths) is something most people in "the know" won't talk about because we do have secret plans you know? why would we divulge trade secrets? so, how about a **********? you could have various inputs such as ***, ********, and *********. it would provide you with the ability to *********, *******, *********. even include a few ************. i bet with enough ***********, it would be capable of many methods of *****, **********, and *******. ok... enough sarcasm and morning anger. time for another cancer stick and drink half this pot of coffee.