Talk to me about switching to Mac...and still running XP

[BONES]

Why do you need FW? I've been using USB stuff without any problems for more than 5 years. Hell you can get 10 in/10 out jobbies now, so if you only need a couple of stereo in/out channels, you should be fine with USB.
You should also be aware that the new MacBooks no longer have FW at all. The Pros do but you might want to check if its still the same 6-pin as the old ones.

[visa tapani]

Why do you need FW? I've been using USB stuff without any problems for more than 5 years. Hell you can get 10 in/10 out jobbies now, so if you only need a couple of stereo in/out channels, you should be fine with USB.

Hmm yeah that's a very relevant point of course. Well, I still think that firewire is the better transfer protocol for audio interfaces, with a better sustainable rate and reliability -as long as it's TI. Furthermore, I've understood that with USB you might get resource sharing issues with the different USB-ports? Well, I might be mistaken. Finally, I already have a FW interface, so I'd save a couple of 100$'s by not getting a new one right now.

Ultimately, it's not only the TI firewire why I'm trying to avoid consumer-PC laptops. The big issue is that AFAIK it's almost impossible to know in advance whether a certain specific computer will be usable as a DAW or not. If you're lucky, it might work just fine, if not, you might get all kinds of mystical and uncurable issues or just plain bad performance. I've understood that a bulk of these result from a small and poorly written BIOS, which in turn leads in IRQ-conflicts and resource allocation issues.

Well, I wasn't very lucky with my current (Asus) laptop even though I researched it pretty well before I made the purchase. It just worked abysmally - totally unreliable machine that has caused me a lot of unecessary trouble. With a MBP, you pretty much know what you're going to get, same as if you buy from ADK or Sonica or such.

I know that your Dell has worked well, but I just can't afford to take the risk anymore my next computer would cause me as much pain in the ass as my current one has...

You should also be aware that the new MacBooks no longer have FW at all. The Pros do but you might want to check if its still the same 6-pin as the old ones.

Yeah, the new Pro's only have a (9-pin) FW 800. This is not a big problem in itself, as it's backwards compatible. However, the big problem is that in the new Macs the Firewire chipset is no longer by Texas Instruments, but by Agere, and it's deemed incompatible by most audio interface manufacturers.

This is why I'm not considering the new line of Mac's at all anymore, but I'm looking to buy one of the previous generation MacBook Pro's. I might even be able to get a pretty good deal on one right now...

[umd]

These threads are fuuuuuun!... Who's winning? I want to play in the other team to keep it 50/50.

[BONES]

Well, I wasn't very lucky with my current (Asus) laptop even though I researched it pretty well before I made the purchase. It just worked abysmally - totally unreliable machine that has caused me a lot of unecessary trouble. With a MBP, you pretty much know what you're going to get, same as if you buy from ADK or Sonica or such.

I don't know that I'd trust an Asus laptop at all, but I reckon Dell, Lenovo/IBM, HP and possibly even Sony build laptops that are every bit as good as an Apple jobbie, except that they are generally more configurable to your needs and a lot cheaper.

I know that your Dell has worked well, but I just can't afford to take the risk anymore my next computer would cause me as much pain in the ass as my current one has...

Actually, in the last 3 or 4 months, my Dell has had the mobo replaced twice. The second time it was out of warranty, and the problem manifested itself quite differently, but Dell did the on-site repair anyway, without me having to so much as ask. Try getting that kind of service from Apple. And this is the 4th Dell I've had and all of them have been rock-solid performers [up to the point this one needed two new mobos, at least]. I think the poor decision I made with this one was buying it before it had been released, with no way of knowing what it would be like [brand new line of machines for Dell]. But it certainly hasn't put me off and I will continue to look at Dell when it comes time for a new work machine next year.
The thing you need to remember is a MacBook Pro is the best laptop Apple make. If you compare it to the best laptops Lenovo or Dell make, its rubbish. Check out the Lenovo W700 for instance - quad-core, on-board RAID and a built-in graphics tablet with stylus. Or Dell's latest mobile workstation, which I think is called the M6400. HP have similarly outta control machines, too. Apple's stuff is just consumer-grade, these guys are serious and have a range of proper mobile workstations that will work as well as anything for your needs.

[visa tapani]

I don't know that I'd trust an Asus laptop at all, but I reckon Dell, Lenovo/IBM, HP and possibly even Sony build laptops that are every bit as good as an Apple jobbie, except that they are generally more configurable to your needs and a lot cheaper.

The problem is that there's a lot of conflicting information about this on the net (and elsewhere). At least Dell, HP and Sony have received a fair share of slam on the net, and there are a plenty of bad experiences with Lenovos as well.

I think the poor decision I made with this one was buying it before it had been released, with no way of knowing what it would be like [brand new line of machines for Dell].

But with a PC laptop in general it's very difficult to know in advance what it will be like for audio work. It's very rare to actual bump into someone with DAW -user experience with a fairly new PC-laptop, and most of the reviews and benchmarks are pretty unavailing for audio-work. Or try to ask from a store (or even the manufacturer) the size of the BIOS, for instance. By buying a custom taylored audio-laptop or a previous-generation MBP, you know pretty well what you're getting. With a normal PC-laptop, unless you know someone who has already used that exact model for audio work, you are going more or less blind.

The thing you need to remember is a MacBook Pro is the best laptop Apple make. If you compare it to the best laptops Lenovo or Dell make, its rubbish. Check out the Lenovo W700 for instance - quad-core, on-board RAID and a built-in graphics tablet with stylus. Or Dell's latest mobile workstation, which I think is called the M6400. HP have similarly outta control machines, too. Apple's stuff is just consumer-grade, these guys are serious and have a range of proper mobile workstations that will work as well as anything for your needs.

Well that's just rhetorics. Saying something is consumer-grade or Pro-grade is just a vague value judgement unless it's based on something specific. Judging by a quick glimpse, the W700 and M6400 don't make a MBP look like rubbish at all. Pretty much the only outstanding feature of those computers is their ability to pack in a quad-core processor. Otherwise they are certainly not aimed at DAW-work, and it seems like you'd be paying a lot for features that are just unecessary for that. And you would be paying an arm and a leg indeed - those things make a MBP look like a steal! For example the W700 seems to cost about 3300€ around here at the moment, and that's with just a dual-core processor!

Anyway, the previous-generation MacBook Pro 2,5 Ghz costs 1590€ here at the moment, and even less with a student-discount. With that price, I think its bang-for-buck value is totally competitive...

[BONES]

But with a PC laptop in general it's very difficult to know in advance what it will be like for audio work. It's very rare to actual bump into someone with DAW -user experience with a fairly new PC-laptop, and most of the reviews and benchmarks are pretty unavailing for audio-work. Or try to ask from a store (or even the manufacturer) the size of the BIOS, for instance.

I think you are over-thinking the problem. Audio isn't close to the most taxing thing I use my computer for but I've never been concerned about the size of the BIOS on any machine I've owned or used.

By buying a custom taylored audio-laptop or a previous-generation MBP, you know pretty well what you're getting.

The problem is that what you are getting is an old laptop. How you can see that as being advantageous is quite beyond me. You'll get slower throughput at every stage in the mobo, not to mention older, slower CPUs.

Saying something is consumer-grade or Pro-grade is just a vague value judgement unless it's based on something specific.

No, the difference is reliable performance and its much more important than the size of the BIOS, for instance. An M-Series Dell laptop is built to an entirely different standard to an Inspiron and HP's workstation business is a completely separate group from their consumer grade product, so a workstation-class HP computer is an entirely different beast to a Pavilion PC. You can't even buy them from normal retailers, you'll need to find a value-added reseller.

Judging by a quick glimpse, the W700 and M6400 don't make a MBP look like rubbish at all. Pretty much the only outstanding feature of those computers is their ability to pack in a quad-core processor.

And on-board RAID, for lots of audio tracks. Where is it exactly that you need performance if powerful processing and high-speed disk access is not relevant? I don't really understand where you are coming from at all.

[visa tapani]

I think you are over-thinking the problem. Audio isn't close to the most taxing thing I use my computer for but I've never been concerned about the size of the BIOS on any machine I've owned or used.

I might be, but I'm not the only one. Almost all custom audio-laptop manufacturers emphasize the importance of the BIOS, especially ADK. This is a good read about the subject.

Code: Select all

BIOS: most laptops are 512k some are 1 meg, where a desktop will have 4meg- 8meg. This is probably the biggest issue. The BIOS for the most part is responsible for IRQ and resource allocation. A small and poorly written BIOS is what causes so many things to be lumped onto one IRQ. ACPI handles this.

With laptops you have "hot swap" devices (cardbus, Express slot and more), and this adds to the issue. Understanding that resource allocation is memory based (name space and virtual memory), a small BIOS has a hard time allocating space for all potential product IDs.

Also, if by "taxing" you mean the amount of CPU-cycles required, then sure, there are more demanding processes. However, audio work has other crucial demands (regarding for example DPC latency and resource allocation), so that you get steady errorless stream of data. I mean, with rendering a graphic file for example, a few hiccups here and there are of no consequence, but when recording audio that's a disaster. So in a way audio work is one of the most demanding things you can do with a computer, because even the slightest errors in the data stream are unacceptable...

The problem is that what you are getting is an old laptop. How you can see that as being advantageous is quite beyond me. You'll get slower throughput at every stage in the mobo, not to mention older, slower CPUs.

Old technology is no good, of course. However, the top of the line previous-generation MBP doesn't seem like old technology to me at all:

2.6GHz Intel Core 2 Duo (6MB shared L2 cache)
4GB 667 DDR2 SDRAM (2x2GB PC2-5300)
200GB Serial ATA @ 7200 rpm
GeForce 8600M GT 512 Mt
6-pin FW 400, 9-pin FW 800 and Expresscard Slot, all by TI

IMO looks pretty comparable with all but the most over-the-top workstation laptops from other manufacturers right now... Or is there something in that that really looks like old technology to you?

No, the difference is reliable performance and its much more important than the size of the BIOS, for instance. An M-Series Dell laptop is built to an entirely different standard to an Inspiron and HP's workstation business is a completely separate group from their consumer grade product, so a workstation-class HP computer is an entirely different beast to a Pavilion PC. You can't even buy them from normal retailers, you'll need to find a value-added reseller.

The size and design of the BIOS is one of the most critical factors for reliable performance in a laptop (a powerful CPU etc doesn't quarantee that). I mean, of course I'm not interested in the size of the BIOS for itself (as a fetish or something), but because of the consequences it will have for exactly the reliability of the performance.

Judging by a quick glimpse, the W700 and M6400 don't make a MBP look like rubbish at all. Pretty much the only outstanding feature of those computers is their ability to pack in a quad-core processor.

And on-board RAID, for lots of audio tracks. Where is it exactly that you need performance if powerful processing and high-speed disk access is not relevant? I don't really understand where you are coming from at all.

Well yeah, the onboard RAID is a good feature, missed that one. Still the prize is a lot for what you get IMO. Sure, CPU, ram and disk speed are very important for me - but they are not enough by themselves. With a lot of laptops you'll start to get clicks and pops already at ~50% CPU mark and/or you will not be able to get low-latency performance even if your CPU meter barely moves. These things clearly demonstrate that CPU performance is not the only thing that counts for audio performance, and normal benchmarks don't translate 1 to 1 for audio use.

So, in short what I want from my laptop are the following things (in roughly the order of importance):

- As much CPU power as possible
- A well-designed BIOS to minimize IRQ-conflicts and resource allocation issues
- Firewire and expresscard slots (etc) by a reliable manufacturer (namely, TI. If the FW and Expresscard slots are by Ricoh or such, they will be almost unusable for audio work, and you're forced to use USB, the worst transfer protocol of them all)
- 3-4Gb of RAM (I'm still using XP, so more is of no use ATM)
- A fast (7200 RPM) hard drive
- a good build quality, low noise and so forth

In light of these requirements, the top-of-the-line previous generation MBP seems like a pretty good bang-for-the-buck machine to me...

[UltraJv]

This has degenerated into a host of irrelevant technical issues. The BIOS has nothing to do with audio - I dont care what a particular vendor says. Ive never had to go into the BIOS to alter anything for audio on any of my pcs or laptops. The size of the BIOS is laughable! thats bull, it has nothing to do with IRQs but depends on features that the OEM wants to add (which arnt relevant for audio). IRQ issues are a result of badly written drivers. There is a lot of info on the net for old pcs and laptops, seems that its still being used as a reference today which is plain wrong. Let the guy get the old MBP and be done with it.

[Lunatique]

Just wanted to drop a quick note regarding keeping your installation of Windows running smoothly for a long time. I don't know how many people regularly do OS maintenance with registry fixer/cleaner apps? What about defragging? Anti-virus/Spyware detector? It is possible to not have to reinstall Windows every couple of years IF you know how to maintain it well.

[BONES]

I have found that since XP, I haven't had to worry about any of that krap. I don't care about the registry and defragging only seems to be necessary rarely. Vista does it as a scheduled task so I don't worry about it at all. I used to reinstall Win98 and NT4 regularly but I've never bothered since moving to XP because I've never felt the need.

Also, if by "taxing" you mean the amount of CPU-cycles required, then sure, there are more demanding processes. However, audio work has other crucial demands (regarding for example DPC latency and resource allocation), so that you get steady errorless stream of data. I mean, with rendering a graphic file for example, a few hiccups here and there are of no consequence, but when recording audio that's a disaster. So in a way audio work is one of the most demanding things you can do with a computer, because even the slightest errors in the data stream are unacceptable...

That is one aspect but when you are trying to play out an HD video stream to tape, a far greater throughput is required and you absolutely cannot afford any glitches. OTOH, who really cares if you get the occasional glitch while you're listening to a piece? Comparatively, it is of no consequence as you'll always do your final render non-realtime. It is certainly no more important than getting glitch-free video playback in any of my work, even though I am far more accepting of the occasional dropped frame.
IRQ stuff only comes into play if you have a million things hanging out of your laptop. If you only connect the essentials, audio interface and a mouse for instance, you should never have any problems. I have certainly never encountered any. Its a simple matter of treating your machine with respect and an ounce of common sense. I haven't had an IRQ conflict since the days of Win95. I can't even imagine how those problems arise in this day and age.

2.6GHz Intel Core 2 Duo (6MB shared L2 cache)
4GB 667 DDR2 SDRAM (2x2GB PC2-5300)
200GB Serial ATA @ 7200 rpm
GeForce 8600M GT 512 Mt
6-pin FW 400, 9-pin FW 800 and Expresscard Slot, all by TI
IMO looks pretty comparable with all but the most over-the-top workstation laptops from other manufacturers right now... Or is there something in that that really looks like old technology to you?

Your RAM bus-speed is barely half of the current crop. Right now its still kind of common but in a years' time it is going to seem very slow. Its certainly on-par with my current machine but its already half-way through its life-cycle.

The size and design of the BIOS is one of the most critical factors for reliable performance in a laptop (a powerful CPU etc doesn't quarantee that).

But the less you have to push your CPU, the less any of the rest of it matters at all. If every part of your system can cope easily with what you want from it, then you never need to worry about the rest of it. OTOH, if you are trying to ring the neck out of an older, slower machine, all of that stuff comes to the fore and so becomes an issue, if you know what I mean.

- Firewire and expresscard slots (etc) by a reliable manufacturer (namely, TI. If the FW and Expresscard slots are by Ricoh or such, they will be almost unusable for audio work, and you're forced to use USB, the worst transfer protocol of them all)

You can say that but I have 5 years' experience that tells me its completely and utterly untrue. 5 tears of performing up and down the east coast of Australia and in Europe, relying completely on USB audio for realtime performance on stage, using lots of taxing SE softsynths. I've had 4 different USB I/O devices running on 6 different workstations and laptops and never had to put any effort into getting good performance.

In light of these requirements, the top-of-the-line previous generation MBP seems like a pretty good bang-for-the-buck machine to me...

I think I'd still have more faith in my two-and-a-half year-old M90, which you'd pick up for a lot less than any 2nd hand Mac.

Slightly off-topic, we just got word from one of our biggest customers, who decided to trust Apple and go down the Final-Cut Pro route, at the expense of proper, professional video editing from Avid. They just irretrievably lost 49Tb of data. It means that a TV programme that should have aired nationally this week has had to be postponed indefinitely, all because management bought into the Apple hype. Given that the data is all compressed, its likely that 49Tb is a whole year's work, maybe more, and its just gone.

[Curois]

Slightly off-topic, we just got word from one of our biggest customers, who decided to trust Apple and go down the Final-Cut Pro route, at the expense of proper, professional video editing from Avid. They just irretrievably lost 49Tb of data. It means that a TV programme that should have aired nationally this week has had to be postponed indefinitely, all because management bought into the Apple hype. Given that the data is all compressed, its likely that 49Tb is a whole year's work, maybe more, and its just gone.

I am far from an apple fan. I don't use Apples, I use windows xp on PCs and I'm very happy with that. But the above story just sounds like nonsense to me. Professional grade programs, don't just make 45 TB of data disappear. Even Apple crap like Final Cut Pro doesn't (Not a personal opinion that it's crap. I never edit video so I wouldn't know). You don't have to like FCP, but it's still a professional video editing program that gets used by lot's of professionals probably.
The point is, that FPC didn't make 49 TB of data disappear. The person using it did, through some faulty input. You can only blame the fact that, because they switched, they were probably new to the software and inadvertedly pushed the wrong button.
Also, if you have the storage capacity to store 49 TB of data, you might as well have double that amount to properly back it up. Even in the very unlikely case that FPC made the data "disappear", your client should be shot in the neck without remorse for failing to follow proper backup and reduncy rules.

[BONES]

Yeah, but when you decide to use X-San storage instead of stuff designed for use with high-end video, its a big risk. The fault lies completely and utterly with Apple's hardware. I'm sure anything that has been finished is archived on tape but if any of it ever needs re-editing for some reason, its likely it would have to be done over from scratch, using the camera originals.
We're talking about the kind of network storage that allows multiple systems to be accessing HD video/audio streams in realtime, so its not just a case of one dead HDD, its a whole dead set of striped, mirrored arrays that all went down together, probably because of the controller or something similar.
Our storage, designed to work with our systems products [Smoke/Flame], is ridiculously expensive [tens of thousands of dollars] but its also got tons of engineering behind it to safeguard data. Like Avid, we put as much effort into it as we do into the applications/systems that access it. e.g. We have our own proprietary disc format, StoneFS, which is designed to look after your data and ensure proper performance.
Its serious stuff at a level you probably haven't ever encountered, but to the uninitiated it seems like a lot of money just to store files. Its an easy thing to talk management types, with no front-line experience, out of but the consequences can be disastrous. In fact, a lot of deals we do in that area are won/lost on storage, rather than our applications, and this isn't the first time something like this has happened to a big customer who should have known better.
FCP is certainly a great application but the hardware around it is just not up to the standards required of a major TV network. There are some areas where it can work OK but for most broadcast applications the amount of critical work that has to go through each box is such that a much higher level of reliable performance is required. That's the environment I work in, which is why I'll always choose a company with a dedicated workstation business over a consumer or pro-sumer appliance. Dell's XPS business seems like a good compromise, being built for serious gaming performance, but my next laptop will almost certainly be a Precision or another brand's workstation-class machine. I've learned my lesson.

[hotcheese]

Too many responses here to read them all to check if I'm duplicating what somebody else has already answered.

You mentioned coexistence and bootcamp. But bootcamp doesn't let you run mac os and windows xp simultaneously, you have to run one or the other. If that is important to you.

If you want to run windows and mac simultaneously you need to run fusion or parallels.

I have tried all 3 of these and generally they all run fine though with varying niggles.

Bootcamp is free if you have leopold but the others are fairly cheap. Parallels is supposed to be the better choice if you run XP but Fusion better if you run Vista.

One thing you cannot do is run window/mac musically simultaneously i.e. you can't have a mac daw and windows vst or vice versa unfortunatly as Fusion and Paralles don't support midi between host/guest OS.

[visa tapani]

2.6GHz Intel Core 2 Duo (6MB shared L2 cache)
4GB 667 DDR2 SDRAM (2x2GB PC2-5300)
200GB Serial ATA @ 7200 rpm
GeForce 8600M GT 512 Mt
6-pin FW 400, 9-pin FW 800 and Expresscard Slot, all by TI

Your RAM bus-speed is barely half of the current crop. Right now its still kind of common but in a years' time it is going to seem very slow. Its certainly on-par with my current machine but its already half-way through its life-cycle.

Hmm, how drastically does the RAM speed affect audio performance? Anyway, judging by a quick survey, most of the top-of-the-line 15,4" laptops today have either 667 or 800MHz DDR2, only very few of them have DDR3, so it's not far behind. Out of curiosity I went to local Dell page and customized what seemed to me their best current 15,4" laptop (Precision M4400). I pimped it to specs like this:

CPU: Intel® Core™ 2 Duo T9600 (2.8GHz,1066MHz,6MB)
RAM: 4GB, 800MHz DDR2 Dual Channel (2*2048)
HD: 160GB SATA (7,200 rpm) Hard Drive (Free fall sensor)
GPU: Discrete nVidia FX770M Graphics Card (with 512MB dedicated memory)

And all this would cost 2,347€. It would probably be a better machine than the MBP, but no wonder as it would cost me almost 1,000€ more. And I'd only be getting slightly faster CPU and slightly faster memory for that money. A quick look on Lenovo's site gave similar results... This is why a MBP with specs like quoted above seems like a good value for money, as I could probably get one used for ~1400 €...

5 tears of performing up and down the east coast of Australia and in Europe, relying completely on USB audio for realtime performance on stage, using lots of taxing SE softsynths. I've had 4 different USB I/O devices running on 6 different workstations and laptops and never had to put any effort into getting good performance.

Well to be quite honest if I didn't already have a FW interface I'd probably just stop worrying about all these TI FW issues and simply use USB. However, since I do have one, changing to a USB-interface would be a unecessary extra cost ATM. Also, most of the best audio interfaces by manufacturers such as MOTU and RME seem to be FW... It's nice to have that option anyhow...

I think I'd still have more faith in my two-and-a-half year-old M90, which you'd pick up for a lot less than any 2nd hand Mac.

Maybe where you live, but around here Dells, Lenovos et all ar pretty expensive, and not well distributed. I'm pretty sure that finding a Dell M90 here would be quite a challenge, and if I did, it would probably not be a great deal. Pretty much the only "pro" laptops that can be found here 2nd hand are MacBook Pros...

[visa tapani]

You mentioned coexistence and bootcamp. But bootcamp doesn't let you run mac os and windows xp simultaneously, you have to run one or the other. If that is important to you.

One question about Bootcamp: can I set my Windows installation be my primary OS so that it loads that automatically without holding alt at startup?

Just wanted to drop a quick note regarding keeping your installation of Windows running smoothly for a long time. I don't know how many people regularly do OS maintenance with registry fixer/cleaner apps? What about defragging? Anti-virus/Spyware detector? It is possible to not have to reinstall Windows every couple of years IF you know how to maintain it well.

Well, I use CCleaner regulary, defrag with JkDefrag GUI every now and then. And sometimes I use registry cleaners, although every now and then I get some side effects from this. I also have AVG antivirus and Comodo firewall running.

From all of this I haven't noticed any great performance benefits, but since it's fairly risk free (sans possibly the registry cleaning), it's good to do anyway. Antivirus and firewall probably slow down the computer, so it might be worth it trying to avoid them if possible...

There are also some free uninstallers that might do a more thorough job on the uninstallation than normal methods...