Hi,
Does anyone know the way to get the perfect kick for hardhouse/trance?
I keep trying but I'm never happy with it, I don't seem to get the snap that really punches through. I need to know what effects I need.
I use a compressor for the kick with attack at 0ms and release about 50ms.
Threshold about -10. I think I need more than that.
Doing dance music, the kick is the most important part but it always sounds wrong. Never loud enough before clipping. It's starting to be frustrating.
All I need is a set of fundamental rules with routing, effects and their settings.
Any straight forward rules for my little brain would be a great help. Thnx.
How do I get the perfect Kick for hard house/trance?
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- KVRAF
- 5948 posts since 19 Jun, 2008 from Melbourne, Australia
There is no set of fundamental rules with routing effects and their settings. The trick is to build up your skills to help you find "your sound". To do that you need to experiment a lot.
Sticking a compressor on a given drum sound will not give you phat drum sounds unless the drum sound is right to begin with. The compressor has to have something to work with.
There have been two threads recently about getting fat drums sounds. Use KVR search for "fat" (or "phat") + drums. There is also a thread listing bucket loads of free sample sites and one of the links contains something like 200 sets of classic drum machine samples, sorted for each drum machine - awesome.
Use Google to search for "sine wave kick tutorial". That is the beginning of a "perfect" trance kick.
For dance music you obviously want a heavy "thrump" in the bottom end of your kick. Get yourself a 909 kick sample or two and start experimenting. Try out an EQ on it. Boost or cut, depending on how you want it to sound. Check presets in various plugins to see how "they" do it. You will start to notice patterns that eventually make sense and get you the sound you are after, then you can do it yourself.
Peace,
Andy.
Sticking a compressor on a given drum sound will not give you phat drum sounds unless the drum sound is right to begin with. The compressor has to have something to work with.
There have been two threads recently about getting fat drums sounds. Use KVR search for "fat" (or "phat") + drums. There is also a thread listing bucket loads of free sample sites and one of the links contains something like 200 sets of classic drum machine samples, sorted for each drum machine - awesome.
Use Google to search for "sine wave kick tutorial". That is the beginning of a "perfect" trance kick.
For dance music you obviously want a heavy "thrump" in the bottom end of your kick. Get yourself a 909 kick sample or two and start experimenting. Try out an EQ on it. Boost or cut, depending on how you want it to sound. Check presets in various plugins to see how "they" do it. You will start to notice patterns that eventually make sense and get you the sound you are after, then you can do it yourself.
Peace,
Andy.
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- KVRAF
- 2208 posts since 13 May, 2005
Hardware compression and EQ. Upload a few of your kicks and I send them through some outboard for you.
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Muzik 4 Machines Muzik 4 Machines https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=9550 - KVRAF
- 7829 posts since 6 Oct, 2003 from Quebec
fruity loops demo
club kit
cKick.wav
club kit
cKick.wav
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- KVRAF
- 10597 posts since 13 Jun, 2004 from Alberto Balsam
It's the right application of EQ, compression, and subtle distortion.
EQ is particularly important, especially on the attack. With an electronic kick, a pitch envelope is closing down in almost an instant, and the frequencies that you boost and cut from the kick will play a major role in determining how hard the kick hits, paying attention to how a wide range of frequencies are present in just the attack, as in the attack the fundamental pitch of the kick is starting from a higher frequency and immediately dropping down to a low one.
It helps to bring out the more special areas of the attack. If all frequencies that the pitch envelope passes by are the same level, it won't kick as hard, and won't distort the same when put through distortion. The areas to cut and boost from the attack differ with each kick. Typically, you're going to want to boost one or two frequencies of harmonic relevance in the attack, and then boost the body of the kick. In a good kick you will be able to mentally separate what you hear between the initial attack and the body, and how well a kick kicks is partially down to how well the "oomph" of the body follows the attack. So some separation between the two, as in slight EQ cut between the attack and the body (the body is typically the fundamental of the kick), will make the "oomph" that beats at your chest more dominant, providing a fuller, punchier kick.
With the attack being so important, compression settings are as well. Send a kick through a compressor, with an immediate attack, moderate release, and with the threshold set so that a ratio of 4 or so is clearly audible (this is just a starting point). Start opening up the attack on the compressor, and see how it is effecting the electronic kick. It's obvious that the larger the attack setting is on the compressor, the longer the "artificial" attack is on the kick now. However, it is important to realize what this is doing to the spectral domain as well. Keep in mind how an electronic kick starts with a high frequency dropping to a low one, and therefore: the longer the attack setting is adjusted in the compressor, the lower the frequencies are that are getting through the attack. The amount of kick that you want to go into the attack will differ with every kick and with what you want to do.
Sometimes you may want to merely accentuate the initial "tick" of an attack, and therefore will have a short attack setting. Sometimes you will want to lengthen the attack a bit, letting through the low-mids of the attack in the kick. If you have already EQ'd the attack as described earlier, it will be quite noticeable when you have adjusted the attack setting long enough to let your boost area(s) through. Other times you will want to have the attack set long enough to even let a bit of the body into the attack. You should experiment to see what effects that what settings have on what attacks, and why you'd want such effects.
The point of me closely noting the importance of the compressor's attack setting's effect on the spectral domain is that it may leave you chasing your tail as far as EQ settings go. You may boost an area, and then send the kick through a compressor, and then find that you have to re-adjust the area that you boosted, depending on the attack setting. It takes practice to adjust the settings you will want in the end at first, with out having to constantly jump back and forth through your effects chain to re-adjust things. With practice you will gain the foresight to adjust settings without having to fall into a loop, chasing your tail (though you will always have to go back and adjust things, naturally).
And the right distortion is just as important. I'm not talking as much smash-box guitar pedal distortion as much as transparent, soft distortion. Sending kicks through them will fatten them up, and pull your mentioned "boost areas" together, solidifying the kick in general. I recommend camelphatfree, a free but great distortion/compression plug-in (the compression parameter is more like a very soft distortion curve, great for fattening things up).
Note that distortion introduces harmonics, so you have to listen for the effects it has in the spectral domain as well. If you boost fifty Hz and 200hz, the first harmonic introduced from the fifty (my five key is broken off my laptop) hertz frequency will be 200hz, and this may make 200hz overwhelming, and the harmonic introduced from distorting fifty hertz content may even have phase issues with the original 200hz that you are boosting. Again, this may leave you chasing your tail between distortion and EQ settings, but the right practice will lead you in the right direction.
So yeah, EQ, compression, and distortion. Don't be afraid to mix it up, and it's not uncommon to stack these effects chains, I.E.: EQ > Compression > distortion > EQ > compression > distortion. Or, EQ > distortion > compression > distortion > EQ...there is no right or wrong here, just what bears good results and what doesn't.
And then there is the right layering of samples, and synthesis techniques if you are using a kick synth, but we'll leave these also-massive subjects for now.
P.S. IMO! and wieners, etc.
EQ is particularly important, especially on the attack. With an electronic kick, a pitch envelope is closing down in almost an instant, and the frequencies that you boost and cut from the kick will play a major role in determining how hard the kick hits, paying attention to how a wide range of frequencies are present in just the attack, as in the attack the fundamental pitch of the kick is starting from a higher frequency and immediately dropping down to a low one.
It helps to bring out the more special areas of the attack. If all frequencies that the pitch envelope passes by are the same level, it won't kick as hard, and won't distort the same when put through distortion. The areas to cut and boost from the attack differ with each kick. Typically, you're going to want to boost one or two frequencies of harmonic relevance in the attack, and then boost the body of the kick. In a good kick you will be able to mentally separate what you hear between the initial attack and the body, and how well a kick kicks is partially down to how well the "oomph" of the body follows the attack. So some separation between the two, as in slight EQ cut between the attack and the body (the body is typically the fundamental of the kick), will make the "oomph" that beats at your chest more dominant, providing a fuller, punchier kick.
With the attack being so important, compression settings are as well. Send a kick through a compressor, with an immediate attack, moderate release, and with the threshold set so that a ratio of 4 or so is clearly audible (this is just a starting point). Start opening up the attack on the compressor, and see how it is effecting the electronic kick. It's obvious that the larger the attack setting is on the compressor, the longer the "artificial" attack is on the kick now. However, it is important to realize what this is doing to the spectral domain as well. Keep in mind how an electronic kick starts with a high frequency dropping to a low one, and therefore: the longer the attack setting is adjusted in the compressor, the lower the frequencies are that are getting through the attack. The amount of kick that you want to go into the attack will differ with every kick and with what you want to do.
Sometimes you may want to merely accentuate the initial "tick" of an attack, and therefore will have a short attack setting. Sometimes you will want to lengthen the attack a bit, letting through the low-mids of the attack in the kick. If you have already EQ'd the attack as described earlier, it will be quite noticeable when you have adjusted the attack setting long enough to let your boost area(s) through. Other times you will want to have the attack set long enough to even let a bit of the body into the attack. You should experiment to see what effects that what settings have on what attacks, and why you'd want such effects.
The point of me closely noting the importance of the compressor's attack setting's effect on the spectral domain is that it may leave you chasing your tail as far as EQ settings go. You may boost an area, and then send the kick through a compressor, and then find that you have to re-adjust the area that you boosted, depending on the attack setting. It takes practice to adjust the settings you will want in the end at first, with out having to constantly jump back and forth through your effects chain to re-adjust things. With practice you will gain the foresight to adjust settings without having to fall into a loop, chasing your tail (though you will always have to go back and adjust things, naturally).
And the right distortion is just as important. I'm not talking as much smash-box guitar pedal distortion as much as transparent, soft distortion. Sending kicks through them will fatten them up, and pull your mentioned "boost areas" together, solidifying the kick in general. I recommend camelphatfree, a free but great distortion/compression plug-in (the compression parameter is more like a very soft distortion curve, great for fattening things up).
Note that distortion introduces harmonics, so you have to listen for the effects it has in the spectral domain as well. If you boost fifty Hz and 200hz, the first harmonic introduced from the fifty (my five key is broken off my laptop) hertz frequency will be 200hz, and this may make 200hz overwhelming, and the harmonic introduced from distorting fifty hertz content may even have phase issues with the original 200hz that you are boosting. Again, this may leave you chasing your tail between distortion and EQ settings, but the right practice will lead you in the right direction.
So yeah, EQ, compression, and distortion. Don't be afraid to mix it up, and it's not uncommon to stack these effects chains, I.E.: EQ > Compression > distortion > EQ > compression > distortion. Or, EQ > distortion > compression > distortion > EQ...there is no right or wrong here, just what bears good results and what doesn't.
And then there is the right layering of samples, and synthesis techniques if you are using a kick synth, but we'll leave these also-massive subjects for now.
P.S. IMO! and wieners, etc.
Perfectly achievable in the box.living sounds wrote:Hardware compression and EQ. Upload a few of your kicks and I send them through some outboard for you.
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- KVRAF
- 4585 posts since 2 Nov, 2006
Simply put a sub-bass sound in layer with the right BD sound and thats all. in the mixing stage focus your attention on the sub-bass, use a good subwoofer set properly when mixing.
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- KVRAF
- 2208 posts since 13 May, 2005
Now I'm really interrested in hearing some of your stuff.The Chase wrote: Perfectly achievable in the box.
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- KVRAF
- 10597 posts since 13 Jun, 2004 from Alberto Balsam
I guess, if you want. Was always more of DnB person, but is it really that hard for you to imagine great sounding kicks from in the box? Are you from 1998? Heard any electro from the last 7 years?living sounds wrote:Now I'm really interrested in hearing some of your stuff.The Chase wrote: Perfectly achievable in the box.
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- KVRAF
- 2208 posts since 13 May, 2005
He was asking about the "perfect kick drums" here. I know what I can and can't do with certain tools, but I'm interested very much in what others can do. Besides, I was just offering my help for free.The Chase wrote: I guess, if you want. Was always more of DnB person, but is it really that hard for you to imagine great sounding kicks from in the box? Are you from 1998? Heard any good electro from the last 7 years?
About the "good electro from the last 7 years" - can you point me to anything specific?
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- KVRian
- 871 posts since 25 Aug, 2006
A good combo for that recipe I've found is Voxengo Gliss EQ, a dynamic EQ which is a hybrid of eq and compression like a multiband compressor, and TbT's free Slightly Louderizer, a saturation/compression effect. Like The Chase said the kick drum has a "wide range of frequencies" so it makes a case for the multiband compressor approach.The Chase wrote:
It's the right application of EQ, compression, and subtle distortion.
http://www.voxengo.com/product/glisseq/
http://www.tinbrooketales.com/
Click "The Archive" link under "Old/New VST Plugins" The Slightly Louderizer is in the Old folder as "S Louderizer.zip" You might as well get both the Old and New bundles since there is plenty of good stuff there.
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- KVRian
- 1161 posts since 17 Nov, 2002 from Middlesbrough,UK
what dont you do what most of the Pro's do right now and buy a VENGEANCE sample disk prefibly the VENGEANCE ESSENTIAL HOUSE VOL-1 the kicks have awesome snap/punch to begin with then just add your favorite compressor 
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- KVRAF
- 2208 posts since 13 May, 2005
They're not bad, but they're not perfect either.CANE CREEK wrote:what dont you do what most of the Pro's do right now and buy a VENGEANCE sample disk prefibly the VENGEANCE ESSENTIAL HOUSE VOL-1 the kicks have awesome snap/punch to begin with then just add your favorite compressor
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- KVRAF
- 1821 posts since 26 Nov, 2005 from Where silence and chaos meet.
try the other way: attack 40-50ms and zero release...Novata wrote:Hi,
I use a compressor for the kick with attack at 0ms and release about 50ms.
Threshold about -10. I think I need more than that.
try not to have the other parts overlaping the same frequencies as the kick drum. cut the low-end on them.
It's not what you use, it's how you use it...
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- KVRAF
- 3928 posts since 23 Oct, 2005 from vassalboro, maine
i read chases post, and then went on an adventure to see his recommendations in action. i used this eq =
http://doveraudio.blogspot.com/2008/11/sector10-eq.html
(yeah, it's my plugin, whatofit)
and i was very enthused by the results. maybe i can make music that doesn't sound like muddy crap. - hmmm, i make vsts for making music, and most of the music i make is mindretching... oh well. just make sure if you cut the bandwidth on this eq to 0 - the volume of the band is also 0, or you will get audible feedback output on the band... hmmm... but the point of my post is not shamefull self promotion, but just an mention that this eq, since it had very tight lowend bands... and bandwidth control on the thing... seem to fatten up a kick very well. indeed, it's like a spectral space sweeper thingy. yay. i wish i couldf learn things liek this everyday... maybe i read it before, but didn't try it until chase talked about it.
http://doveraudio.blogspot.com/2008/11/sector10-eq.html
(yeah, it's my plugin, whatofit)
and i was very enthused by the results. maybe i can make music that doesn't sound like muddy crap. - hmmm, i make vsts for making music, and most of the music i make is mindretching... oh well. just make sure if you cut the bandwidth on this eq to 0 - the volume of the band is also 0, or you will get audible feedback output on the band... hmmm... but the point of my post is not shamefull self promotion, but just an mention that this eq, since it had very tight lowend bands... and bandwidth control on the thing... seem to fatten up a kick very well. indeed, it's like a spectral space sweeper thingy. yay. i wish i couldf learn things liek this everyday... maybe i read it before, but didn't try it until chase talked about it.
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- KVRian
- 1414 posts since 24 Mar, 2007
how long will you continue with this shit?living sounds wrote:Hardware compression and EQ. Upload a few of your kicks and I send them through some outboard for you.
'The science of rich men does not elevate all mankind, but only themselves.'
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