I'm feeling more and more frustrated each day...
I bought my first quality DAW, Cubase Studio 4, a year ago. Prior to that, I'd done a lot of fiddling with this and that. After purchasing it, and Kontakt, acquiring some other VST's, and gathering samples, I'd dedicated a very large chunk of my free time to learning my software. At that time I felt I'd never stop hitting roadblocks, and would never get anything done if I wasn't fluent with my software, or didn't know my techniques. So as well as reading those manuals I'd also spent countless hours of time on messageboards like these learning and picking up knowledge. Reading stickies, articles, following links, watching videos, downloading pdfs and spreadsheets, troubleshooting.... A lot of time. You guys know what I'm talking about.
I even went and started piano/music theory lessons. Unfortunately, I had to drop them after 10 sessions for lack of dough (big mistake! partial music theory knowledge is teh debil!)
So here I am now, with a head very full of knowledge on the subject of modern computer based music production. It's only a year of experience, granted, but I think I did pretty damn good for myself. It's my thing, it's what I do. Well, learn the technical end at least...
When I open up Cubase and start a project, I can't make a song. All that research time dismantling roadblocks, but there's this one that just hasn't gone away. All those manuals don't teach me to be a musician. So here I am, just a technician. I hear other peoples stuff, and often find myself emboldened with the though, "Damn, I can make stuff that's way catchier and shiner and better than this!" And then I load up my software, spend some hours coming up with precisely that! Well, at least 20 seconds worth of "catchier, shinier, better."
There's a great hook there, too bad it's the only one. Thick pad! Too bad it hardly gets used. Well mixed, punchy, rockin.... It's still not a song. I feel like I'm musically inclined, and I've got a good mind for the technical end, yet can't make a song? So how frustrating is that?
Alright, so that's just a rant... Sorry...
I'll try and describe in a little more useful way. When I start a project, for one I don't have any large vision of what I want, no idea of where it's going to go. It'd be nice to have that big picture, but I can't seem to devise one. And when I stumble across a nice combo of drums, bass, groove, whatever, I can shine it up, but my mind goes absolutely blank concerning what to do with it.
So a few times I figured, maybe I'll try and remix something. Then at least I have a little bit of structure or theme to guide by, some musical landmarks to help me get the big picture. But even that hasn't worked. I've tried walking away from the computer, and graphing out on a paper a desired song structure, and I sort of got a little mileage out of that. But that was like tensing a muscle. I couldn't keep it up. On those projects where I got the farthest, it took so long, with so much effort, I burnt out completely. You'd have to pay me to reopen those files. Not just out of fatigue, but for having actually come to dislike the song. That, in itself, is quite demoralizing: to fear that at some point, I'll have put enough effort in to dislike my work!
When I'm just walking around, listening to someone elses song, I can come up with differing harmonies and melodies and other ways to change it, lots of ideas. But starting from scratch? Nothing. My mind becomes an empty, empty space.
The evidence seems to point that I'm not cut out for this.
But then again, Michael Jordan didn't make his high school basketball team.
I need help here guys.
Getting better at making music, but I can't make songs.
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- KVRAF
- 1669 posts since 4 Nov, 2007
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- KVRAF
- 2665 posts since 11 Jun, 2007
Recreate songs you like inside your DAW. Analyzing and remaking like this will teach you a lot about how songs are done. You'll be surprised what you learn during this process.
Shogger
Shogger
What?
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- KVRist
- 297 posts since 15 Jun, 2007
I hear ya mate!
I've spent the last year or so acquiring and learning the basics of how to use lots of software programs and hardware. Granted i'm really a beginner when it comes to most of these things, i've pretty much been using computers since i was 5 - so most of the stuff is pretty logical to me.
When I pick up my guitar and start playing, or get my piano and start making random notes - I can always come up with a great riff or hook - but I have almost no ability to take it further and make a whole song! maybe it's all the choice that I have at my fingertips (with all the different vsts/patches/effects etc) - maybe I need to find a way to limit it all?
Or maybe I just don't know what goes with what - i'm really not sure. That's the one thing that can't be easily taught - how to actually get somewhere writing/music making.
I think my biggest issue is that I get caught up with a lot of effects/finding the perfect sound etc... and it gets rid of the creative flow - maybe a better idea is to set up a little session with some instruments/samples and just use them to create something.... i'm not sure - i'd appreciate any ideas too?
I've spent the last year or so acquiring and learning the basics of how to use lots of software programs and hardware. Granted i'm really a beginner when it comes to most of these things, i've pretty much been using computers since i was 5 - so most of the stuff is pretty logical to me.
When I pick up my guitar and start playing, or get my piano and start making random notes - I can always come up with a great riff or hook - but I have almost no ability to take it further and make a whole song! maybe it's all the choice that I have at my fingertips (with all the different vsts/patches/effects etc) - maybe I need to find a way to limit it all?
Or maybe I just don't know what goes with what - i'm really not sure. That's the one thing that can't be easily taught - how to actually get somewhere writing/music making.
I think my biggest issue is that I get caught up with a lot of effects/finding the perfect sound etc... and it gets rid of the creative flow - maybe a better idea is to set up a little session with some instruments/samples and just use them to create something.... i'm not sure - i'd appreciate any ideas too?
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- KVRian
- 536 posts since 8 Dec, 2004
its maybe cause the loop youre perfecting is already the main most catchy part of the song, and you shouldnt and can't take that any further, or more climatic.
maybe you should try to decompose? make filler parts or parts that lead TO the part you already have.
anyway, for almost 8 years i made infinite amounts of 1 minute tracks and had exactly the same feeling. luckily nowadays i start to see a bigger picture, you just have to step back. i studied some simple music theory, and it helped a LOT. there are texts on classical composing all over the net, and its perfectly appliable on almost every kind of music.
maybe you should try to decompose? make filler parts or parts that lead TO the part you already have.
anyway, for almost 8 years i made infinite amounts of 1 minute tracks and had exactly the same feeling. luckily nowadays i start to see a bigger picture, you just have to step back. i studied some simple music theory, and it helped a LOT. there are texts on classical composing all over the net, and its perfectly appliable on almost every kind of music.
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- KVRAF
- 4908 posts since 10 Aug, 2004 from Colorado Springs
Songwriting should be done away from the tempation of the DAW. Write lyrics anywhere - speak them into a cell-phone memo recorder, write them down in a PDA, etc. Work out verse/chorus/bridge while sitting at the piano or with a guitar, or workstation keyboard.vinayk wrote:I hear ya mate!
I've spent the last year or so acquiring and learning the basics of how to use lots of software programs and hardware. Granted i'm really a beginner when it comes to most of these things, i've pretty much been using computers since i was 5 - so most of the stuff is pretty logical to me.
When I pick up my guitar and start playing, or get my piano and start making random notes - I can always come up with a great riff or hook - but I have almost no ability to take it further and make a whole song! maybe it's all the choice that I have at my fingertips (with all the different vsts/patches/effects etc) - maybe I need to find a way to limit it all?
Or maybe I just don't know what goes with what - i'm really not sure. That's the one thing that can't be easily taught - how to actually get somewhere writing/music making.
I think my biggest issue is that I get caught up with a lot of effects/finding the perfect sound etc... and it gets rid of the creative flow - maybe a better idea is to set up a little session with some instruments/samples and just use them to create something.... i'm not sure - i'd appreciate any ideas too?
Once you have a solid song construction, with some idea of chord progressions and melody/harmony - then go to the DAW, but not before.
There's nothing wrong with finding the perfect sound/effect/voice - but if it gets in the way with songcraft, then your goal of writing and recording songs will always be a long way off in the distance.
Someone farther up the thread mentioned re-constructing other songs. This is an excellent idea. Study not only the sounds of the song but also the construction of the song. Copy the construction - but change the chord patterns - to start a framework of your own song.
-Scott
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- KVRist
- 76 posts since 6 Jan, 2008 from the Netherlands
This sounds very familiar! I guess a few more years of practice and growing frustration will in the end give result... 
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- KVRist
- 297 posts since 15 Jun, 2007
Thanks for the advice guys - I think i'll have to grab a simple song and remake it - maybe something from the new linkin park album that i can't stop listening to (flame all you want - I still think it's excellent!)
Would it be better to stick to one sort of synth/sampler etc or just use any and everything? I'll have to pick a DAW too hahaah - I think it's probably a job for logic pro given the vocals and all!
Would it be better to stick to one sort of synth/sampler etc or just use any and everything? I'll have to pick a DAW too hahaah - I think it's probably a job for logic pro given the vocals and all!
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- KVRAF
- 2938 posts since 18 Jul, 2005
This is generally directed at loopatitisitis, not to the OP particularly.
I've pushed a few things to the finished side of the very faint line, but the graveyard of unmembered bits is far more busy. Still, I used to be 8 bars and barely beyond nothing more than that.
It's gonna be a big post, but I'm extremely indebted to the advice of others and here is some of it that got me further:
Music theory. I really recommend picking some up, because used well, it can loosen the rut. Within a matter of days you can have the basics -- and even if you go no further, they're the most useful step you'd ever take with it anyway. First of all, it cuts down on the frustration of bum notes when you're trying to add new parts, and more on that further down. Second of all, learning a bit about basic chord progressions and melody gives you some ideas on how to move things forward. If this sounds a bit stale, I'm not suggesting you write with it, but in using it to experiment (a lot of which will sound more pleasing due to point 1) you may find it jump starts ideas. Thirdly, if you learn the basic theory behind some songs you like, it'll help you understand how they joined up the different elements of the song structure.
Leading onto the second tip: pay attention to other music, listen to how the parts relate to one another and the details of the segues between song sections. How the bassline changed, what happened in the percussion, how the melody broke free of its shackles for that last bar before falling into a new line.
Act quickly, if you can, when an idea first strikes. Like rockstar_not, I use my phone recorder all the time, and most ideas start there. Most ideas following on from the original ideas start there, and usually in the same 10/20 minutes. Step outside of wherever you are if you can and just record embarrassing mouth renditions of what you're hearing.
Don't coddle the loop. Once you have your idea sketched out, quickly move onto extending the song rather than elaborating the loop. Personally, I find the time I spend on one isolated looping section links directly to how deeply engraved in my brain it becomes. Once it's got too familiar, I'm generally completely unresponsive to any technique of eking more out of it.
Lastly, when you've got to have yer looping yer loop, try playing something over it. Even if it's really basic stuff. If you play over it for quite a while, at least in my experience, you'll come up with something, even accidentally, that you can use and that might spark off other ideas. I can't write decent songs on demand, they have to pop up out of the subconscious -- but when I hear a glimmer of something I like, it can sometimes kick something into action behind that curtain and stuff starts emerging.
And that's the key thing. If you rely on your subconscious to deliver, you need to learn ways of manipulating it. It's a tough one because you can't ever see how the gears fit, but with enough attention I think you can find patterns in what gets them going.
I've pushed a few things to the finished side of the very faint line, but the graveyard of unmembered bits is far more busy. Still, I used to be 8 bars and barely beyond nothing more than that.
It's gonna be a big post, but I'm extremely indebted to the advice of others and here is some of it that got me further:
Music theory. I really recommend picking some up, because used well, it can loosen the rut. Within a matter of days you can have the basics -- and even if you go no further, they're the most useful step you'd ever take with it anyway. First of all, it cuts down on the frustration of bum notes when you're trying to add new parts, and more on that further down. Second of all, learning a bit about basic chord progressions and melody gives you some ideas on how to move things forward. If this sounds a bit stale, I'm not suggesting you write with it, but in using it to experiment (a lot of which will sound more pleasing due to point 1) you may find it jump starts ideas. Thirdly, if you learn the basic theory behind some songs you like, it'll help you understand how they joined up the different elements of the song structure.
Leading onto the second tip: pay attention to other music, listen to how the parts relate to one another and the details of the segues between song sections. How the bassline changed, what happened in the percussion, how the melody broke free of its shackles for that last bar before falling into a new line.
Act quickly, if you can, when an idea first strikes. Like rockstar_not, I use my phone recorder all the time, and most ideas start there. Most ideas following on from the original ideas start there, and usually in the same 10/20 minutes. Step outside of wherever you are if you can and just record embarrassing mouth renditions of what you're hearing.
Don't coddle the loop. Once you have your idea sketched out, quickly move onto extending the song rather than elaborating the loop. Personally, I find the time I spend on one isolated looping section links directly to how deeply engraved in my brain it becomes. Once it's got too familiar, I'm generally completely unresponsive to any technique of eking more out of it.
Lastly, when you've got to have yer looping yer loop, try playing something over it. Even if it's really basic stuff. If you play over it for quite a while, at least in my experience, you'll come up with something, even accidentally, that you can use and that might spark off other ideas. I can't write decent songs on demand, they have to pop up out of the subconscious -- but when I hear a glimmer of something I like, it can sometimes kick something into action behind that curtain and stuff starts emerging.
And that's the key thing. If you rely on your subconscious to deliver, you need to learn ways of manipulating it. It's a tough one because you can't ever see how the gears fit, but with enough attention I think you can find patterns in what gets them going.
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- Boss Lovin' DR
- 14312 posts since 15 Mar, 2002 from the grimness of yorkshire
Mebbe you were born to be a producer/engineer (in the old school sense of the word) and not a writer?
You say you can write a good hook. That's the most of it done then. Obviously I don't know what kind of music you're doing there but I assume it's something fairly melodic given the former?
I can only advise not to over-complicate things; get 2 or 3 ideas and map them out as a primitive song with no frills at all then build on your arrangement from that.
If you want to post something you've done I'm sure people will give constructive advice.
You say you can write a good hook. That's the most of it done then. Obviously I don't know what kind of music you're doing there but I assume it's something fairly melodic given the former?
I can only advise not to over-complicate things; get 2 or 3 ideas and map them out as a primitive song with no frills at all then build on your arrangement from that.
If you want to post something you've done I'm sure people will give constructive advice.
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- KVRist
- 221 posts since 5 Nov, 2002 from Slovenia
I wrote an article for Wusik Sound Magazine about that topic few months ago.
http://www.arsov.net/PDF/HowToWriteaPopSong.pdf
Maybe it will help you to find your way out.
http://www.arsov.net/PDF/HowToWriteaPopSong.pdf
Maybe it will help you to find your way out.
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- KVRist
- 397 posts since 8 Aug, 2004 from Munich, Germany
Well, this is very good! It tells you unmistakenly, that something goes wrong, so take it as some kind of "hint". I cannot tell if you have any talent. But I have the strong impression that you've expected too much from learning. Something like: once I have learned everything about music and music technology, I will be able to make good music. No, you won't. Knowing your tools and techniques may help, but knowledge is no substitute for creativity.MOK19 wrote:I'm feeling more and more frustrated each day...
Important question: Do you have any vision or idea about the music you want to write? Yes? Then try to create a very simplified version of this idea. Prepare yourself that you may have to work for months on this piece. Use the knowledge (and half-knowledge is not so bad for this purpose!) to experiment a little bit with your work (e.g. with chord progressions, instrumentation or whatever). Knowledge is not a cookbook but a tool to improve one's own imagination. You may not be completely happy with the piece afterwards, but you will have learned a lot about making music.
If not, try something else or wait some months until you try again.
Cheers,
Andreas
More music: http://blog.andreaskrebs.de
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- KVRer
- 15 posts since 8 Aug, 2008 from sweden
This is a great post, I think im way behind the threadstarter because everything just confuses me hehehe. Anyway I think these are great tips and I will definately try them out, as soon as I get a general knowledge on sounddesign I will start to remake the songs I like. Another great tip from shogger thanks dude 