Basic theory problem that it seems to be overlook

[mhemnarch]

Learning to play along with other tracks is all fine and well
However parts fit together in a song for a reason.
The pursuit you outlined is just jamming.
Jamming is fun but it's hardly a way to develop your own music/sound.

I agree that jamming isn't the chief way to find a sound, but it certainly has a place in learning how songs fit together, how to create basic, useful lead lines, etc. You learn to crawl before you walk, after all.

[jancivil]

if jamming means improvising with other people, saying that it's 'hardly a way...' is just stupid.

If you're trying to be the next bubblegum hit monger, maybe not.

I'm not crawling when I do it, YMMV

[tapper mike]

I agree improvising and copping can serve as a launchpad for musical ideas.
It's also a lost artform outside of a few blues and bebop players. The best of which is when you feed off of them and they feed off of you so you get a true sense of interplay and find your voice within the mix as opposed to being the fifth wheel.

The downside is it also serves as a mechanism for covering.
(hey this sounds like it how do I make it sound closer to what was there)
Covering turns to route and route turns into rut.

Been there done that....still doing it (all of the above)

If you cover or jam too much for too long it's easy to find the originality stiffled by what you know. The end result is you hear the cover and you follow the cover, Till you are convinced you can't write as well as the original artist and then focus on recreating material rather then writing it.
(Which can pay off if your in a great cover band)But you've fooled yourself out of the writing field.

In the eighties I worked as a studio musician doing jingles and such.
The producer would come in and say "I want it to sound like (beach boys, beatles, america, miami sound, ACDC, GNR whitesnake etc etc) but not too much like (song name, artist)Then throw out a chart with the chord progression. On top of that he'd have a hook if the hook didn't fit we'd have to make it fit.
You were either highly adaptive or you were out the door.

What it left me with is a very self effacing approach. Which isn't always a bad thing. Madonna doesn't write her material she has two nerdy guys who sit around and say "What would Madonna do/say" then write based on that.

[jc21161]

Thanks all, all my questions have been answered, none of my theory/composing books and hard to find songwriting websites have addressed any of these questions, at least not directly enough for me to understand, thx thxthxthx.

It looks like the bass guitar plays mainly first thirds, and fifths as well, which reminds me. I played guitar with a Mexican band one day and the bass player plucked the bass notes in between my strum of my guitar chords rather with the beginning of the strum. So my question would be is this typical of may be slower rock 'n roll songs. It sounded similar to a country bluegrass song I play on my guitar where's the thumb plays a base note in between the strums of the chord. I know someone will say just listen to the rock songs and find out yourself, however it may be hard to tell because as I can remember, at the beginning of the chords, but maybe not evenly spaced between the chords. And another question I may have is the relation to the base note with the kick drum, during or after the thud?

Left brain, right brain, yes I can believe that, one memory bank shifting in, the others shifting out, to different psyche states.
As long as ones not Dr. Jekyll and the other Mr. Hyde, LOL.

Limiting myself to a narrel palette of musical theory, that's okay because the vocal track will probably introduce many notes from the chromatic scale and I will probably stumble into interesting chords from the chromatic scale as well, probably most songs would have chords only from the particular key it's played in, but there's always other chords we play by accident and sounds too good to leave out of the song, sounds right anyway?

Yes I plan on sticking with the C pentatonic scale Major and minor, and if you put in a F# in the minor pentatonic it becomes the blue scale. I will compose mainly in the key of C because my harmonica is in the key of C as most are, and the key of C uses all white keys (in Major) which simplifies keyboard parts.

Download some MIDI of rock songs - "O" yes would like to download some MIDI of rock songs where can I download some at that are compatible with FL studio, or some other common software.

Sascha, that sounds like a very sexy name, who here would like to flirt with a lady going by the name of Sascha, memememememe!

And jancivil Pic is soooooo HOT!

Sascha Franck said: Do you have a small snipplet of stuff you are particularly unhappy with? Yes here is my only song on the web at this time, it is at least an attempt of the mode of D Dorian, D Dorian is like the key of C major, all white keys, and you start on the second (ii) of the C major scale so you play Notes D to D. The songs name is (The Mystery of the Night.)You should be able to navigate to it with this link, http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default ... dID=790042 You my need to type the name in the search box? at the upper right of the site, but first click SONG that you will see POP UP, thin type the name THE MYSTERY OF THE NIGHT, then click search. It's a good example of my awkward bass parts, however I dropped the volume on the bass notes that did not sound right, but are probably still audible. This song goes with a book I'm writing of a haunted wooded area where teens and teens at heart gather to swim and hang out.

Thank you all from: OP Jeff Copeland of Central Washington State USA.

[The Fex]

So my question would be is this typical of may be slower rock 'n roll songs. It sounded similar to a country bluegrass song I play on my guitar where's the thumb plays a base note in between the strums of the chord.

Just listen to the rock songs and find out yourself.

I know someone will say just listen to the rock songs and find out yourself, however it may be hard to tell because as I can remember, at the beginning of the chords, but maybe not evenly spaced between the chords. And another question I may have is the relation to the base note with the kick drum, during or after the thud?

Try starting by having root bass notes coincide with the kick, and thirds coinciding with the snare. Take it from there. If it doesn't sound right, try playing on the off-beat instead. Build in some variations over the course of the song to stop it getting boring.

You'll get better at this sort of thing with practice, but I'm not sure that it can really be taught.... to a great extent, you either just get it intuitively, or you don't. Successful artists play to their strengths.... find out what you do best, and practice that. It may be that your strengths lie in composing for a particular instrument, in which case there's no shame in needing help with more complex arrangements. (It's still worth dabbling in other areas, and building an appreciation of how the whole thing hangs together, though. I mix for fun. I know I'll always be crap at it.)

I will probably stumble into interesting chords from the chromatic scale as well, probably most songs would have chords only from the particular key it's played in, but there's always other chords we play by accident and sounds too good to leave out of the song, sounds right anyway?

If it sounds right to you, go with it. It keeps things interesting. If you're not sure, get a second opinion. If you can find out why it sounds good, you've learned a new trick, and it will probably be repeatable.

I will compose mainly in the key of C because my harmonica is in the key of C as most are, and the key of C uses all white keys (in Major) which simplifies keyboard parts.

Hmmm.... a friend of mine made an entire dub album in C once, because he couldn't be bothered with the black keys.... and he made the whole thing on a single synth.... it actually sounded pretty good, but I suggested that he transpose some of the songs, and tweak them accordingly (and to reprogram his drum parts to take the number of a drummers limbs into account).... and when he did, it sounded a whole lot better. Listening to one key, or one tempo, gets a bit boring after a couple of songs.

Download some MIDI of rock songs - "O" yes would like to download some MIDI of rock songs where can I download some at that are compatible with FL studio, or some other common software.

Too many places.... just google the name of a favorite hit pop song followed by ".mid", and several of the sites with that one track will also have many, many others.

[llatham]

I played guitar with a Mexican band one day and the bass player plucked the bass notes in between my strum of my guitar chords rather with the beginning of the strum.

But, most likely, he was playing on the downbeats, and you were playing on the upbeats (or some similar alternation).

So my question would be is this typical of may be slower rock 'n roll songs.

No.

It sounded similar to a country bluegrass song I play on my guitar where's the thumb plays a base note in between the strums of the chord.

Right. It's called "alternating bass" because the bass alternates between the root and the 5th of the chord (usually) (p.s. not because it alternates with the guitar, or chords).

But you're playing the strums in between the thumb's notes - not the reverse

I know someone will say just listen to the rock songs and find out yourself,

That's exactly it. Do it. No one - despite everyone's attempts to do so - can "tell" you how "typical" songs are constructed without specific information. It's like riding a bicycle - you can read about how to do it all day but until you get on it and figure out how it balances, you won't be able to ride it.

however it may be hard to tell because as I can remember, at the beginning of the chords, but maybe not evenly spaced between the chords.

As I can remember? Dude, actually LISTEN TO SOME MUSIC - it is MUSIC after all. Bass interacts with chordal instruments in MANY ways. There's alternating bass, as in Bluegrass, there's walking bass as in Jazz, there's repeated 8th note bass as in rock. There's stock patterns as in Blues and Boogie Woogie. There's "upbeat" bass as in Reggae - I mean, the types are limiteless. Add to that that there are many patterns that, while at first seem complex, are really elaborations of one of the more simple forms.

As a few others are saying, walk before you run, crawl before you walk. Listen to some music, figure out what the bass is doing, and figure out how it is interacting with the other parts. Do this for 100 songs and you're questions will be answered. Do this for 1000 songs, and you'll be pretty confident. Do it for 100,000, and you'll know your stuff. That's how most people learn it - by doing it.

And another question I may have is the relation to the base note with the kick drum, during or after the thud?

Bass, not base. Very often, the Bass note plays with the kick, which is usually on beat 1, but that's a very broad generality. But, to put it very simply again (which is where you are besides those who are trying to tell you to use Super Locrian scales and go out of the key, etc.) the Kick is on 1 and 3, and the Snare is on 2 and 4. The bass, when playing an alternating bass pattern, plays on 1 and 3 as well, the guitar would strum on 2 and 4.

This is *THE* basic Backbeat pattern. There are INFINITE variations on it, and it's not found in every song - there are songs that use other patterns. BUT, you need to walk before you run, and learn to make an accompaniment pattern using the basic backbeat pattern. Then you'll see (once you listen to and dissect and/or play) some other tunes, how everything is related.

Limiting myself to a narrel palette of musical theory, that's okay because the vocal track will probably introduce many notes from the chromatic scale and I will probably stumble into interesting chords from the chromatic scale as well, probably most songs would have chords only from the particular key it's played in, but there's always other chords we play by accident and sounds too good to leave out of the song, sounds right anyway?

Not really. It's not as random as that. There are actually rather specific ways in which chromaticism is used within a larger diatonic context - that's what defines a "style" to some extent. Despite posts here claiming the contrary, there are MANY pop/rock songs that never use a note out of the diatonic scale - the entire Green Day catalog is probably an example (I'm being facetious, of course they have chromaticism, but there are songs of theirs - and many other bands, that are largely, or entirely diatonic).

Now, there is certainly music that uses the chromatic collective in much different ways. But, if you're trying to write a blues, rather than Stravinsky, it helps to know what makes each one which, so you can make an effective piece stylistically similar to what you're wanting to do.

Yes I plan on sticking with the C pentatonic scale Major and minor, and if you put in a F# in the minor pentatonic it becomes the blue scale. I will compose mainly in the key of C because my harmonica is in the key of C as most are,

Many are. Not all. There are Diatonic and Chromatic Harmonics, as well as a difference between "Blues Band" and "Marine Band" styles. The diatonic ones come in many keys: C, F, G, D, A, E, Bb, Eb, Ab. There are probably more.

But it is OK to write in C so you can play along with your particular harmonica.

and the key of C uses all white keys (in Major) which simplifies keyboard parts.

Right. In Major. Not minor, or blues. And it doesn't help any other instruments. Pop songs of today - those based on the kinds of materials you're asking about, are frequently found in less keys than those I gave for harmonicas because of Guitar. Favorite keys are E, Em, G, A, Am, D, maybe Dm. Pop songs tend to stay away from C because many musicians think it's "too "I just learned how to play" ". But there's a fair share of songs in Cm. Other keys are *comparatively* rare (for those who are going to freak out about that, "comparatively" means, given the vast amount of music out there, there are less pop songs in Db compared to the sheer number of songs in E).

IOW, C is cool, but you should spend time learning your other keys too.

Download some MIDI of rock songs - "O" yes would like to download some MIDI of rock songs where can I download some at that are compatible with FL studio, or some other common software.

Every *common* MIDI sequencing software will import MIDI files in the .mid format. If yours doesn't, you're using the wrong software. All you have to do is search on Google.

You can also listen to the radio (it's free) or internet radio, use iTunes, etc.

HTH,
Steve

[The Fex]

Learning to play along with other tracks is all fine and well
However parts fit together in a song for a reason.
The pursuit you outlined is just jamming.

No it's not, it's arranging.

Melody, Harmony, Bass are all places to build riffs.
If your riff is clouded, crowded or obtuse it won't catch anyone nor will it hold anyone.

Exactly.

Most of the developed songwriters already have a groove in mind from the first note. The Beatles didn't need a drum machine or a daw to draw inspriation.

No, they needed Carl Perkins, Buddy Holly, Little Richard.... and that's how they became developed songwriters. With mellotrons and symphony orchestras.

the Kick is on 1 and 3, and the Snare is on 2 and 4.

Hey, OP, this is pretty basic stuff.... if I had to write a bass part for 'The Mystery of the Night', I'd probably start by muting the percussion, and trying to apply this formula....

[jancivil]

as per 'jamming not a way to develop your sound'

confer JIMI HENDRIX. How do you think he got from playing regulation R&B in bands on the chitlin circuit, to what he SOUNDED like in 1967 when he was discovered?

CONSTANT JAMMING. Every opportunity.

[Sascha Franck]

The songs name is (The Mystery of the Night.)You should be able to navigate to it with this link, http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default ... dID=790042 You my need to type the name in the search box? at the upper right of the site, but first click SONG that you will see POP UP, thin type the name THE MYSTERY OF THE NIGHT, then click search.

Err. What?
I mean, seriously, I copied the link, I copied the name of the tune, I entered both into whatever search boxes I found. All to no avail.

- Sascha

[tapper mike]

Learning to play along with other tracks is all fine and well
However parts fit together in a song for a reason.
The pursuit you outlined is just jamming.

No it's not, it's arranging.

No arranging is reworking an entire piece of music. Not a selected portion
Such as an isolated bass. All the parts are rewritten when arranging.
It can also include transposition tempo metre as well as adding/removing parts and assigning to different instruments.
Jamming is working within the existing structure.


Check out for giggles.
lesbian segu1l for one.
lesbian segull lounge version.
That's arrangement. Different supporting parts, different feel

Most of the developed songwriters already have a groove in mind from the first note. The Beatles didn't need a drum machine or a daw to draw inspriation.

No, they needed Carl Perkins, Buddy Holly, Little Richard.... and that's how they became developed songwriters. With mellotrons and symphony orchestras.

I disagree with this one.
When they covered it was because they had to. It's the only way they could get record deals and gigs at the time. Once they had established themselves the record company caved to pressure because they had proven themselves as worthy songwriters. As well they had enough material to hold a show without playing covers.

Granted, playing covers is a good way to develop your skills as a musician. The skills one aquires are a launching point not an end point.

There is no shame in quoting ones influences, however there is a big difference between that and chaining yourself to a machine to carry you because you can't carry yourself. If you listen to the same drum box beat perpetually you'll be limited to the two or three original ideas that first intrigued you. If you can carry your own beat in your head you can then right and apply things even to the same beat that you would have not concieved chained to the box. You don't have to find the beat if you have an internalize sense of metre. And you can't internalize metre unless you can play unaccompanied. When you carry the beat your it's master when it carries you your it's slave.

[tapper mike]

as per 'jamming not a way to develop your sound'

confer JIMI HENDRIX. How do you think he got from playing regulation R&B in bands on the chitlin circuit, to what he SOUNDED like in 1967 when he was discovered?

CONSTANT JAMMING. Every opportunity.

No He wasn't jamming when he was playing the chitlin circut. He was playing/still learning his instrument. As a matter of fact he lost more gigs then he got because he was more obsessed with antics then playing with a group. He couldn't hold his own act together. In order to play in a band one needs to play with a band.

His first gig was with an unnamed band in the basement of a synagogue. After too much wild playing and showing off, he was fired between sets.

During his chitlin circut years he was a back-up musician. He didn't learn to be creative he learned to play the part given to him. When "Superstar Bob" hires "Jimi Who?" as a backup musician the crowd is coming to see "Superstar Bob" perform all the songs on his record as recorded. They don't come to see Jimi Nobody thrashing around and messing up the song. Jimi learned to play "in/with a band" by playing the songs as recorded/written. The disciplne of playing as recorded rather then Jamming helped him to refine his playing into something that was. Jimi Hendrix after playing with every one was no one and he couldn't get decent gig in the states. He was playing to crowds of 50 at Cafe Wha No one in the chitlin circut wanted anything to do with him. Even though He finally started figuring out how to meld his antics into a cohesive song. It wasn't until he had burned out the chitlins got his act somewhat together and could right cohesive songs that someone took a chance and sent him off to england.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimi_Hendrix

[The Fex]

No arranging is reworking an entire piece of music. Not a selected portion
Such as an isolated bass. All the parts are rewritten when arranging.
It can also include transposition tempo metre as well as adding/removing parts and assigning to different instruments.
Jamming is working within the existing structure.

The American Federation of Musicians defines arranging as "the art of preparing and adapting an already written composition for presentation in other than its original form."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrangement

A jam session is a musical act where musicians gather and play (or "jam") without extensive preparation or predefined arrangements.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jam_session

I'm not interested in getting into a protracted semantic argument with you. As far as I'm concerned, writing a new bass line for an existing piece of music counts as arranging. It's an entirely different thing from jamming.

When they covered it was because they had to. It's the only way they could get record deals and gigs at the time. Once they had established themselves the record company caved to pressure because they had proven themselves as worthy songwriters. As well they had enough material to hold a show without playing covers.

See, this is what happens if you don't listen to other peoples' music enough.... you end up on internet forums claiming that the Beatles covered "Act Naturally" and "Dizzy Miss Lizzy" on Help!, their 5th album, along with "Yesterday", the most covered song ever written, because it was the only way they could get a record deal. And they played "Roll Over Beethoven", "Boys" and "Long Tall Sally" live at the Hollywood Bowl on August 23, 1964 for 17,000 screaming fans, because it was the only way they could get a gig. Right. Whatever.

[jc21161]

Err. What?
I mean, seriously, I copied the link, I copied the name of the tune, I entered both into whatever search boxes I found. All to no avail.

- Sascha

I'm sorry the link does not take you directly to the play button. I spent a good part of a paragraph on how to get there because I still have problems myself but, I may have just made it more confusing? Maybe try going to the home page http://www.soundclick.com and as you start typing the name of the song in the search box, a drop-down menu will pop up, then select SONG so you will be searching for a song , then type my songs name "THE MYSTERY OF THE NIGHT" BABE. "My name is Jeff but you can call me HEY BABY." LOL

I made this song when I knew close to nothing about music theory.And was struggling with my FL studio software. I used majorchords with the D Dorian mode instead of mostly minor, sevenths, minor sevenths, Major sevenths etc. (I think I have pretty good notes of the actual chords used for the Dorian mode but they're not here at my fingertips at the moment.) Thus the song is probably in a lopsided C Major scale. Then also, on top of all else, the chords are really just notes. Which are probably 3 or so octave for each note (chord), or however the synth makes the notes? Then the drum track sounds like it's on the warpath. LOL Even though I plan on doing a major work-over to the song, I will keep this original mix because maybe my lack of theory and knowledge has produced a song that may be in style someday, as someone mentioned earlier in this thread maybe pretty much all chord combinations, scale combinations have been used up, leaving just various pacings of them left. Or at least the song will give me ideas for future projects. However I noticed yesterday the song is in the top 100 of its genre. Yes-"O"- yes yes!!!!

Maybe if I'm lucky I may receive a congratulational cyber kiss, Sascha???? ?? LOL

[Kriminal]

as per 'jamming not a way to develop your sound'

confer JIMI HENDRIX. How do you think he got from playing regulation R&B in bands on the chitlin circuit, to what he SOUNDED like in 1967 when he was discovered?

he plugged his guitar into about 20 fx boxes and played riffs he stole from Cream....

[Sascha Franck]

I only found this:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default ... tent=music
Is that the song we're talking about?

- Sascha