Basic theory problem that it seems to be overlook

[jc21161]

I only found this:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default ... tent=music
Is that the song we're talking about?

- Sascha

Yes, I just have one song online.

[Sascha Franck]

Yes, I just have one song online.

Hm, ok.
First off: I think some of my comments might come across a bit harsh. They're not meant to be. I mean, you asked for some help and the following is all I can offer.

Alright.
In that particular tune, none of the used "elements" seem to relate to each other at all.
Sure, there's a common key, a common tempo and a common "grid". But that seems to be about it.
Let's take the drums. To me that's just like "any" beat. The fills aren't leading anywhere but are placed in a fashion I'd call randomly. In addition, there's no bass/drum interaction at all. In fact, there's not exactly a bassline I could detect.
The synth sounds are even more distracted. To me, they sound like randomly placed notes on a given grid and tonality.
Not a single of these elements support the vocals at all. In fact, everything seems to work against the vocals.
There's no hooks one could remember either.
In a nutshell: In terms of traditional songwriting (or anything remotely similar to that), this doesn't even deserve to be called a song.

Ok, I told you I would come across sort of harsh.

Now, I am not saying that one needs to work around whatever stereotype "standards", but as you asked how to overcome certain limitations, it might be a good idea to become familiar with some basic ideas in terms of song construction.

For instance, let's have a look at the beat and the bass.
In almost all popular music styles, these interact in one way or the other. The bass might just lock into the accents of the kick or the drums may support whatever bassline. It basically depends on what's more important.

Also, in almost all popular music styles, you will be able to just play whatever tune using a simple accompanying instrument and your melody (in this case the vocals).

Once you got both of these things together (a melody with some harmony underneath and a groove supporting both), you can start with arranging and working out the details.

To a certain amount, these things can be learned. In case you're interested, just fire away.

- Sascha

[tapper mike]

I'm not interested in getting into a protracted semantic argument with you....

See, this is what happens if you don't listen to other peoples' music enough.... you end up on internet forums claiming that the Beatles covered "Act Naturally" and "Dizzy Miss Lizzy" on Help!, their 5th album, along with "Yesterday", the most covered song ever written, because it was the only way they could get a record deal. And they played "Roll Over Beethoven", "Boys" and "Long Tall Sally" live at the Hollywood Bowl on August 23, 1964 for 17,000 screaming fans, because it was the only way they could get a gig. Right. Whatever.

If your not interested in getting into an argument with me then stop baiting.
It appears you are only interested in your side of the discussion.
And injecting false claims/assumptions about my character.

I stated that they had contractual obligations. I don't know how aware you are about Touring as Marketing but If you listen to any band the first set is usually the latest album followed by other hits.
Considering record companies would shell out big bucks for tours they expect a return on thier effort. The beatles didn't tour the world in a V.W. microbus They had to have sufficient capital in advance for the complete entorage.

[jc21161]

In a nutshell: In terms of traditional songwriting (or anything remotely similar to that), this doesn't even deserve to be called a song.

Ok, I told you I would come across sort of harsh.



- Sascha

You see, this is what I'm talking about. Thanks Simon Calley, -O- I mean Sascha Franck, thanks for your honesty. LOL You see all you guys answering my very basic questions you got to know they have not been in vain after this review, even some of my songs using good musical theory are having this problem. And as I said previously, they sound ingenious until I review them days later. The song Sascha is referring to is the song that I had a friend listened to and he had about the same sentiments, he is not a musical genius as yourself, but he is a music lover. I think the reason it made it to number 98 is due to the lyrics and synth, there is a lot of ghost story lovers out there, even though the subjectis a boring turn off to a lot of people?

What I'm more concerned about is, if my voice is attractive enough to use to sell my songs, and to make original CDs for friends and family. I do not have to sing in key because I have Melodyne software that puts my vocals in key with a mouse click, however some notes may need to be put manually, or switched out.

I think downloading MIDI songs of the kind of songs I'm looking to compose will help a lot, they graphically and musically show precisely what instrument are doing relative to all others, however I imported some into FL studio 8 and I see everything but no sound outputs. It may take me some time to get the audio/MIDI settings right. Notes I punch in work (output audio)
but the notes from the MIDI import don't, no audio output from them at all.
Maybe a few more midi downloads will work?

Please keep outputting your opinions, even to the obvious questions I have asked, as they may shed light on this maybe simple but, not simple subject?

So Sascha, what do you think about my voice, I was just kidding about Simon Calley So you can be completely honest. But you may want to keep in mind Bob Dylan and Johnny Cash made it big with their voices, for an example of maybe controversial voices.

Thanks for any honest opinions, it is a lot of typing "sorry" you guys, but "please" keep them coming!!!!

[The Fex]

Notes I punch in work (output audio)
but the notes from the MIDI import don't, no audio output from them at all.
Maybe a few more midi downloads will work?

MIDI is not audio. Try playing them through a General MIDI synth or SoundFont.

[jc21161]

The Fex said: MIDI is not audio. Try playing them through a General MIDI synth or SoundFont.

Do you know of any software ware I can see and hear the midi at the same time. windows media player plays the midi as audio output but I can't see the notes/beats on the bars at the same time as hearing it.
Thanks, THE FEX for the info.

[The Fex]

Do you know of any software ware I can see and hear the midi at the same time

I would think that any DAW will do this. Split the MIDI onto separate tracks, route them through a SoundFont player, load a GM SF2 into the player, press play, tweak MIDI channels and instrument settings to taste.

Wait.... have you been making synth music without using MIDI? That would explain a lot....

[jc21161]

Wait....have you been making synth music without using MIDI? That would explain a lot....

All the midi I downloaded so far sounds like a kidie organ, but is very good for studding songwriting, is there better? I use Sytrus, FL keys & TS404 Bass synth etc in FL Studio 8's piano roll, their midi no? I see now in FL Studio a midi out device in the list of devices above, I'll see if it makes the downloaded midi play audio output/graphics.

Sascha Franck said a top 100 song is not a song because it's different or unprofessional? Thank Sascha for the very deep advice/observation. keep all honest criticism coming and not morbid patronizing/exaggerations to feed the beast within please, you-all. Unless it's fun for both parties of course. LOL

Thanks all, I hope there is many more posts to come on this thread

[The Fex]

All the midi I downloaded so far sounds like a kidie organ

No, it doesn't. It's quite important that you understand this. MIDI doesn't sound like anything, because MIDI is not audio.

I use Sytrus, FL keys & TS404 Bass synth etc in FL Studio 8's piano roll

I don't, so....

their midi no?

I'm not familiar with FL Studio 8, but assuming it's like every other sequencer I kmow, then yes, it can use MIDI to control your instruments. (Given that you don't seem to have much idea about MIDI, I thought that you might be recording audio from an external synth onto your DAW, which probably isn't the best approach for what you're trying to do.) Take a MIDI download that you think sounds like a kiddy organ, play (for example) the bass track through a bass synth which you like, instead of Windows Media Player, and it will probably sound awesome. It's Microsoft's Wavetable Synthesizer that sounds like a kiddy organ (for several good reasons), not the MIDI.

I like arranging for Microsoft's kiddy organ, by the way. If I get a song sounding listenable on that thing, I know I have a good arrangement to start with. Then I take that MIDI arrangement and use it to drive devices that don't sound like a kiddy organ. Any problem thereafter is more likely a problem with the orchestration or the mix than the arrangement itself.

Sascha Franck said a top 100 song is not a song because it's different or unprofessional?

Hey, we're not taking Billboard here.... you might want to check your ego at the door. FWIW, however, I think it is a song..... just. Rock music, it ain't.

[Sascha Franck]

Sascha Franck said a top 100 song is not a song because it's different or unprofessional?

Do I need to understand that comment? Where did I say that?

[The Fex]

Sascha Franck said a top 100 song is not a song because it's different or unprofessional?

Do I need to understand that comment?

Nope.

Where did I say that?

Actually, OP, Sascha Franck didn't say it wasn't a song. Sascha Franck said it didn't deserve to be called a song.

this doesn't even deserve to be called a song.

However I noticed yesterday the song is in the top 100 of its genre.

If anyone makes me listen to number 101, I will kill them.

[Sascha Franck]

Sascha Franck said it didn't deserve to be called a song.

That's true, he said that.
And I still stand by it, at least by traditional song composing means.

Anyways, the question now being whether the OP wants to learn a few things and if so, where to start.

jc21161, you seem to have quite some lack of a basic "sequencing 101" understanding. The Fex already tried to explain the differences between MIDI and audio to you, and I'd totally agree that this is some sort of fundamental thing you need to be aware about, unless all you want to do is slapping more or less random loops on top of each other, which might be ok, but even in that case a certain amount of knowledge wouldn't harm.

- Sascha

[jc21161]

Hi Sascha, I keep thinking your not coming back but you do.

Thanks The Fex for all that typing and info. again.

MIDI is music just as MP3 is music, it is ones and zeros with the information of music. The designers say it's not music just to help people understand its ones and zeros that would not sound anything like the original music even if you could hear the ones and zeros in the chip, like you can in audio tape or vinyl record grooves, and switching out instruments is possible. I suppose some one could say a CD or record album is not music, it is plastic dummy. LOL

So far all the songwriters in music theory books and online videos 15 or 20 or so have said music theory & arrangement is only an aide, or guideline. As long as the finished project sounds good that's all that counts, maybe five or so were big-time professional, that was the general feel of what they said. So I would take away from that a song is not going to suck because you did not follow some or all of the rules of musical theory and arrangement, it will suck because you are a talentless idiot. LOL
However a song will never sound really good unless you follow trends of popular music. Or gradually start your own trend, which are some of those awful songs you hear on CDs. That would be my take in a nutshell.

Oh yes I still need your opinion on my music etc you all, because I can not hear it. It becomes invisible to me so I can not judge it. It is like the smell of BO, bad breath and oxygen it disappears totally in time. So I need the advice of as many screeners as possible. Could you imagine if this was not so, and a old guy walking down the sidewalk choking gasping for life because of his bad breath, and a good Samaritan passing by helps him get fresh air and he chokes to death on the oxygen? LOL

[Sascha Franck]

MIDI is music just as MP3 is music, it is ones and zeros with the information of music.

No, it's not. Yes, it's all ones and zeros, but Windows (or any other operation system) is ones and zeros, too, and you wouldn't call that music.
Thing is, with all things audio (wav, aif, mp3, ogg and what not) we're dealing with "absolute" values, meaning you can only manipulate things as a whole. Once you have, say, a chord as an audio file, you can stretch it, you can apply effects, you can pitch it and all that. But the chord itself can't exactly be changed.
With MIDI, all you get is controlling information. MIDI in a nutshell is telling whatever device to play certain notes at a certain time, a certain pitch, a certain level and for a certain duration. When you have a MIDI chord, you can change individual notes inside it easily. Or change their lengths. You can as well change the sound entirely by simply selecting, say, a bass instead of a piano patch.

And this is where it get's interesting. If, say, your drum groove was a MIDI based groove, given a certain knowledge about what to do, you could make it fit your song better. The same goes for anything else.
In case it's audio, your options are limited.

Anyways, I don't think that this is your main problem, but you should defenitely be aware of the fundamental differences between MIDI and audio.

- Sascha

[The Fex]

MIDI is music

I think you're completely missing the point. Read this:
http://www.tweakheadz.com/how_to_get_st ... _midi.html
If, having read it, you still think MIDI is music, read it again.
Repeat after me:
MIDI is not audio!