Modes and where to go

[pollyrythm]

Im well versed in areas of production, I just lack a lot of fundamental theory.

Can someone tell me what modes are and why they are important?

I guess I just want to know what im doing when im playing around with chords & when I have something I like, knowing where I can go from there rather than stabbing in the dark. Does this make sense?

What should I focus on first? I understand the principals behind scales & am pretty comfortable finding almost any scale. What I lack is knowing where to take an idea or what to look at first to improve ideas. I just generally take a stab at it, which isnt doing me any favors.

Thanks for your help...

[The Fex]

Can someone tell me what modes are

You know the key of C major, of course, and you're almost certainly used to thinking of the note C as 'the' start of 'the' C major scale, and the note to which a melody in the key of C major would normally resolve.... but that's just the Ionian mode. There are other ways of doing things;

For C major (easy to understand, no nasty black notes):
CDEFGAB (Ionian mode)
DEFGABC (Dorian mode)
EFGABCD (Phrygian mode)
FGABCDE (Lydian mode)
GABCDEF (Mixolydian mode)
ABCDEFG (a.k.a. A minor) (Aeolian mode)
BCDEFGA (Locrian mode)

Each mode has a distinctive flavor. Some are typical of particular regions of the world. Some sound strange to the unaccustomed ear.

It might be easier to consider examples; "Eleanor Rigby", "Scarborough Fair", "Drunken Sailor" are all in the Dorian mode.... if you play them in C major, they resolve to D.

and why they are important?

Are they?

[chrispurchase]

Hi,

Modes are essentially scales and you'd already know a couple of them Ionian (Major Scale) and Aeolian (Natural Minor Scale). The modes just rearrange the order in which the tones and semi-tones fall in the major and natural minor scales.

So in the key of C Major

C = Ionian CDEFGAB
D= Dorian DEFGABC
E= Phrygian EFGABCD
F= Lydian FGABCDE
G= Mixolydian GABCDEF
A= Aeolian ABCDEFG
B= Locrian BCDEFGA

so you'll notice that even though it's all the same notes that the semi tones fall in different places creating major modes (Ionian, Lydian, Mixolydian) and minor modes (Dorian, Phrygian and Aeolian) this is because of the interval between the one and the three scale tones either being the distance of a major third or minor third. Locrian is a Diminished scale because of the interval of the fifth scale tone being a diminished fifth.

You will also notice that each of the modes also has a characteristic interval which will make it sound slightly different to Ionian and Aeolian (Major and Minor).

Major

Ionian - Thought of as the default Major scale
Lydian - has a Augmented forth scale degree
Mixolydian - has a minor seventh scale degree

Minor

Aeolian - Thought of as the default Natural minor Scale
Dorian - Has a Major Sixth
Phrygian - Has a minor Second
Locrian - Has a Diminished fifth

Thus going each mode it's own kind of sound...

People that are smarter than me will be able to tell you more (and let me know if i got any of that wrong).

[Ogg Vorbis]

Can someone tell me what modes are and why they are important?

They are important mostly to help you describe or label something. You can use these modes to tell a saxophonist you are writing a tune with what you were just doing in an improvisatory area.

Can it help you compose? Indirectly, I think. It can help you analyze something someone ELSE has composed, which can help train your ear. Or by hearing things in your own head and being able to identify them, that can help you compose.

[nuffink]

Scales are an unordered collection of pitches. G,D,F,A,C,B,E is a scale, it's the scale of C Major. It makes no difference what order you put them in, those seven pitches and only those seven pitches, uniquely define the scale of C Major.
Modes are an ordered collection of pitches. The same seven notes ordered from C (C,D,E,F,G,A,B) form a mode, in this case it's the C Ionian Mode. Change the starting note say to F and you have (F,G,A,B,C,D,E). Same scale, C Major; different mode F Lydian.

As a chordal resource this doesn't make much difference. You can play the chords GMaj|CMaj|FMaj and call it a II|V|I progression in F Lydian or you can call it a V|I|IV in C Ionian.

So far so boring. You can claim your progression is in...

A Aeolian
B Locrian
C Ionian
D Dorian
E Phrygian
F Lydian
or G Mixolydian

...it makes no difference. The very fact that it's a progression implies that it's not modal, it's scalar. Specifically it's a C Major progression.

Modes get interesting when they're used as a melodic resource.

The characteristic 7th chords (sorry, if you're in this territory you should get comfortable with seventh chords if you aren't already) of the C Major scale are CMaj7|Dmin7|Emin7|FMaj7|G7|Amin7|Bmin7b5. Two major sevenths, three minor sevenths, one seventh (dominant) and one half-diminished (min7b5).
If you're playing strictly C Major then you will naturally play D Dorian over the Dmin7, E Phrygian over the Emin7 and A Aeolian over the Amin7. It's known as playing the white notes.
But those three chords are all minor 7ths, why can't you play the same mode over each?

You can, and it can massively increase your musical palette.

Instead of playing E Phrygian over the Emin7 you can play E Dorian or E Aeolian over it since each can support a min7 chord.
This gives you three distinct modes, each with its own melodic character which you can play over the same chord...

E Dorian - E,F#,G,A,B,C#,D
E Phrygian - E,F,G,A,B,C
E Aeolian - E,F#,G,A,B,C,D

The same thing works for all types of chords. Any chord has a number of modes which you can play over it. Here's an (incomplete) list... http://www.outsideshore.com/primer/prim ... r-4-7.html

[llatham]

Scales are an unordered collection of pitches. G,D,F,A,C,B,E is a scale, it's the scale of C Major.

Whoa there. Sorry, scales are ordered, not unordered. Unordered collections of notes are called a "set" typically.

What you've got above is a set, not a scale. It is possible that this set might represent:

A C Major scale - when ordered consecutively, and shown as starting on C.
A D Dorian mode - when ordered consecutively, and shown as starting on D.

etc.

It makes no difference what order you put them in, those seven pitches and only those seven pitches, uniquely define the scale of C Major.

Those notes do not uniquely define anything until they're put into a CONTEXT. For example, C D E F G A B can be either the scale of C Major, or the mode C Ionian. Context will determine which definition that collection is unique, or if either of those designations are acceptable.

Modes are an ordered collection of pitches.

BOTH Modes and Scales are ordered. In fact, Modes are a specific type of Scale.

The same seven notes ordered from C (C,D,E,F,G,A,B) form a mode, in this case it's the C Ionian Mode. Change the starting note say to F and you have (F,G,A,B,C,D,E). Same scale, C Major; different mode F Lydian.

Or better, same set of notes, different mode.

...it makes no difference. The very fact that it's a progression implies that it's not modal, it's scalar. Specifically it's a C Major progression.

Am - F - dm - Am is not a C Major progression. It's far more likely that it's an A minor progression.

Sorry to disagree so much as, on the internet, it tends to become a battle of opinions, but your conceptualizing of a scale as an unordered set of notes is a bit of a misconception.

I'll quote from Clendenning's/Marvin/s "The Musician's Guide to Theory and Analysis"

"Scales differ from collections in that scales are ordered."

From the Oxford Dictionary of Music:

"A series of single notes progressing up or down stepwise. "

Even the non-musical word scale is "ordered" - "on a scale from 1 to 10", etc.

Steve

[nuffink]

Scales are an unordered collection of pitches. G,D,F,A,C,B,E is a scale, it's the scale of C Major.

Whoa there. Sorry, scales are ordered, not unordered. Unordered collections of notes are called a "set" typically.

Yeah I knew I'd get shit for that. Give me a hour or so to have my dinner and I'll explain my thinking.

[llatham]

Scales are an unordered collection of pitches. G,D,F,A,C,B,E is a scale, it's the scale of C Major.

Whoa there. Sorry, scales are ordered, not unordered. Unordered collections of notes are called a "set" typically.

Yeah I knew I'd get shit for that. Give me a hour or so to have my dinner and I'll explain my thinking.

Yeah sorry. I've written my own "under-developed" words in haste.

I think your thinking is that, the notes C D E F G A B, not considering order, could have any one of the 7 notes be the tonic.

I usually try to say this by putting the notes in "alphabetical" order rather than "scale" order. For example, I'll say:

A B C D E F G is a C Major Scale when starting on C, and a Lydian Mode when starting on F, etc.

So the "unordered" set has the potential to become any one of the "ordered" Scales or Modes with which we're familiar.

At least, that how I understood what you were going for.

I'm just always concerned that other readers may get confused under those circumstances.

Peace,
Steve

[nuffink]

Ok belly full, Top Gear sniggered at, here we go...

First an apology to the OP, this might get complex. Feel free to ignore any or all of what I write.

A scale is traditionally thought of as an ordered set. It is, but not in terms of starting at a particular pitch and continuing in a linear fashion. The C Major scale is commonly notated as C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C.
Starting on a different pitch gives us the modes...
C Ionian
D Dorian
E Phrygian
F Lydian
G Mixolydian
A Aeolian
B Locrian
Seven modes one scale. Except...

The sixth mode, Aeolian, has another name - The (natural) minor scale.

So we have the C Major scale which is analogous to the C Ionian mode which is analogous to the A minor scale which is analogous to the A Aeolian mode.
How about the other modes, do they have a scale? Is the Mixolydian also known as the Brian Major? How about the Dorian, is that also known as the Jill Minor?
No wonder people get confused. Where is the difference between scale and mode? Are they simply different names for the same thing?

So is a scale an ordered set? Yes.
Is a mode an ordered set? Yes.
Does a mode start at a particular pitch? Yes.
Does a scale start at a particular pitch?

• Yes, it must, otherwise A minor and C Major couldn't possibly be different.
  No it can't because then it would be identical to a particular mode. C Major/C Ionian.

See the dichotomy? It can't be both. There's an implicit redundancy.

Whoa, I've just seen your post. I'll post this, though it's incomplete. You mull over this, I'll mull over yours and we'll reconvine.

[nuffink]

Scales are an unordered collection of pitches. G,D,F,A,C,B,E is a scale, it's the scale of C Major.

Whoa there. Sorry, scales are ordered, not unordered. Unordered collections of notes are called a "set" typically.

Yeah I knew I'd get shit for that. Give me a hour or so to have my dinner and I'll explain my thinking.

Yeah sorry. I've written my own "under-developed" words in haste.

I think your thinking is that, the notes C D E F G A B, not considering order, could have any one of the 7 notes be the tonic.

I usually try to say this by putting the notes in "alphabetical" order rather than "scale" order. For example, I'll say:

A B C D E F G is a C Major Scale when starting on C, and a Lydian Mode when starting on F, etc.

So the "unordered" set has the potential to become any one of the "ordered" Scales or Modes with which we're familiar.

At least, that how I understood what you were going for.

I'm just always concerned that other readers may get confused under those circumstances.

Peace,
Steve

Yeah, absolutely. I should more properly have said that scales, while ordered, have no starting pitch except that agreed by convention.

[MadBrain]

If you're into Jazz, it also uses modes of the minor melodic scale (ascending), in addition to the ones above:

C D Eb F G A B (minor melodic - used on minmaj7 chords)
D Eb F G A B C (phrygian #6 - rare)
Eb F G A B C D (lydian #5 - rare)
F G A B C D Eb (lydian b7 - used on 7#11 chords, exists in classical too)
G A B C D Eb F (mixolydian b6 - usable but rare in jazz)
A B C D Eb F G (locrian #2 - used on m7b5 chords, very jazzy)
B C D Eb F G A (locrian b4 - used on alt7 chords, a replacement for 7th chords)

[duncanparsons]

tagged for further reading

[jancivil]

What modal music is, is a set of pitches like a scale, where the notes have a character essentially defined in how they compare to the tonic. Authentically modal music always refers to the tonic.

A mixolydian mode: the minor 7th degree from the tonic sets this apart from say major (which can be called the Ionian mode). Its major third is characteristic; it has a perfect fourth, this is characteristic. That 4th likes to go to that third. That 7th likes the tonic. Explore it, keeping the tonic, always refer to the tonic.

Lydian's sharpened 4th characterizes that mode; you'll find the major 7 to tonic and 'augmented 4' to the perfect 5th feature a parallel character in that mode. But also each tone of a mode is like a color, a feeling, in its relationship with that tonic.

et cetera

[Aroused by JarJar]

What modal music is, is a set of pitches like a scale, where the notes have a character essentially defined in how they compare to the tonic. Authentically modal music always refers to the tonic.

A mixolydian mode: the minor 7th degree from the tonic sets this apart from say major (which can be called the Ionian mode). Its major third is characteristic; it has a perfect fourth, this is characteristic. That 4th likes to go to that third. That 7th likes the tonic. Explore it, keeping the tonic, always refer to the tonic.

Lydian's sharpened 4th characterizes that mode; you'll find the major 7 to tonic and 'augmented 4' to the perfect 5th feature a parallel character in that mode. But also each tone of a mode is like a color, a feeling, in its relationship with that tonic.

et cetera

Now that's a really good answer well put.

Some jazz musician said "a mode is a mood" and that's a great way to look at it. Modality means, basically, the way something is used or manifests itself. Running up and down on the white keys from D to d for example isn't the "Dorian mode". It's about emphasis and interrelations. And the "mood" depends on historical/ethnic and/or personal interpretations.

For example, in the 1906 textbook for Roman Catholic modal chanting I have, the Phrygian mode is described as something like "bold and commanding" (can't remember exactly but when I dig the book out I'll post the "moods" given in the text). Whereas the usual interpretation of the Phrygian mode in Iberian music is something along the lines of "lost love and longing".

Trying to describe modes and their relatives around the world (raga and maqam for example) in terms of "sets" and things is a bad idea. The fundamental understanding (as described by jancivil above) has to be there, for in modal music an essential part of what makes the mode/mood may not even be a fixed pitch at all! The blues are a glaringly obvious example, another example would be a raga which a friend (who studies in India) was demonstrating for me recently, where one of the mandatory "notes" defining the mode was not a fixed pitch, but a specific slide (kind of like "blueing the fourth upside-down" you might say).

And as jancivil pointed out in another thread, there's even more to the "set" or "scale" than a tonic or starting point. Typically you actually need to specify several tones within the scale in describing a mode, before you even get into the interrelationships and region/time/style specific stereotype figures and movements and all that jazz, because the tonic, the final, the tenor/dominant etc. notes can all be different notes.

And what about the quite common (speaking worldwide) modal phenomenon of the mutable upper tetrachord, like the western minor/harmonic minor deal? You have to specify which scale degree is the ascending and which is the descending.

And so on!

In fact it is not even correct to call "C-c on the white keys" "C Major" without specifying G as the dominant and B natural as the leading tone. As you can demonstrate to yourself by doing a C major piece, beginning and ending on C Major, but swapping out the V7 for vi while consistently resolving B natural down to A rather than up to C.

It won't sound like either A Aeolian or C Ionian (probably sound quite nice though) for the modality (usuage, mood and so on) and the key notes/relationships are simply wrong.

[jancivil]

In fact it is not even correct to call "C-c on the white keys" "C Major" without specifying G as the dominant and B natural as the leading tone. As you can demonstrate to yourself by doing a C major piece, beginning and ending on C Major, but swapping out the V7 for vi while consistently resolving B natural down to A rather than up to C.

It won't sound like either A Aeolian or C Ionian (probably sound quite nice though) for the modality (usuage, mood and so on) and the key notes/relationships are simply wrong.

Good point.

I heard and saw a thing @ youtube, a karnatak musician doing 'western note'. shankabharanam.

Lovely.