Basic theory problem that it seems to be overlook

[Aldanor]

I'd propose to discuss the following:





































why are YOU still in this thread?

[The Fex]

why are YOU still in this thread?

It's like the sore tooth that you can't stop poking at.

[Sascha Franck]

a JP22 by any other name.....

You beat me, I was already about to say so.

[jc21161]

I'm sorry I allowed this topic to stray too far off. I will now stick to the topic of: Basic theory problem that it seems to be overlooked. I know how it is to be looking for an answer to a problem you're having in this website and you think you found a topic that will give you your answer only to find people in disagreement about something too far off-topic. I hope in this case it has been entertaining, as some have posted. Probably the best music teachers inject some of this kind of thing to keep class from becoming boring and maintain interest, I hope this has been the case here. My first mistake here was that I forgot to answer the question that the topic implied of this thread, in order for others to confirm the correctness, add to, or disagree with altogether? So I will do that now.

For this discussion I will stick with the key of C major and minor for simplicity. Basic theory problem that it seems to be overlooked. This would be what chords to play in relation to the particular scale you would like to use. And to know that the chords used are the same as the note's use in the major scale, even if you're playing a minor scale , but a few more of the chords are changed do to its now relative minor. To me this seems a little confusing for something that seems to be overlooked. This could be explained in a few paragraphs but never is.

I took several guitar classes in high school and also learned many songs to play in a band using tablature over several years, but one day I set down to write a song and even after all that practice and classes I did not know where to start to write a song. But what I did do is strum some made up chord progressions into a tape recorder for melody and stopped rewound and played to come up with accompanying harmony. Some of the songs did automatically begin with the chord of the keys name, after analyzing with a chord calculator years later. So I will now attempt to answer this question, assuming most people reading this are in need of theory to write music for personal enjoyment and to post on myspace, soundsclick etc as a library to a possible buyer and friends.

If you are a guitar player that does not know chords yet, it is faster to learn two bar chords for major, two for minor, two for seventh, two each, one at the bottom of the guitar's neck (guitar's pitch) and the other a few frets above that. This way you can play every possible chord in nearly the same position of the guitar neck with just six chords, in a few hours or days. And change keys by playing higher or lower on the neck and play strange chords by adding notes to the seventh chord.

The minor scale would probably be the most needed to know although the major could be the most used, for rock. But you can get by without major but you can't get by without minor, for rock songwriting. So to be versatile with in a few days, start with minor keys. Although minor will quite often switched to major and back, to give a song a since of change when the lyrics suggest it. The chords/scales will be for the key of C major first (which is easier to get melody and harmony to sound right with each other) the chords will be the melody, singing will be as the harmony. Chords for major are [1st C major I , 2nd D minor ii, 3rd E minor iii, 4th F major IV , 5th G major V, 6th A minor vi, 7th B diminished vii.] (Have you noticed I wrote it for a learner to understand not just a teacher!!) G major is sometimes G7 if C major follows in a chord progression, B diminished is usually not used, harmony will harmonize better without it. While constructing your original chord progression strum the three chords that are usually used in this key that will give you the feel of the key (or incorporate them in the progression) [C major, F major, G or G7] basic chords for major, use these if one two or three chords are used in a song] (You may need to explain that chord progressions and scales are to be made pleasing to listen to by trial and error, if the last chord/note doesn't sound right in a small string try a different last chord repeating the process until a long string of notes are pleasing to the ear) Use a scales below to create a harmony over the chord progression (The chord progression could be totally random as the harmonizing vocals with experimenting will make the chords locations seem precisely planned. But by placing the chords in a planned sequence that sounds better than random will make the song sound a little bit like there is a second harmony, and even more true if you use more advanced chords, by adding extra notes to your 7th bar chords, you would be adding harmony with in your chords. Here is two major scales [Major C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C] [pentatonic major C, D, E, G, A, C]. Songs usually start and end with the C chord but not always. So if the song is in the key of A start with the A chord, G G chord and so on with the rest of the keys.

Now for using the minor key you do the same thing as above major but with these chords and scales. Chords for minor are [1st C minor i, 2nd D diminished ii, 3rd Eb major III, 4th F minor iv, 5th G major V, 6th Ab major VI, 7th B major VII.] The three basic chords for minor are, i, iv, (V or V7 or vm7),



C PENTATONIC MINOR C, D#, F, G, A#
C BLUES C, D#, F, F#, G, A#
C HARMONIC MINOR C, D, D#, F, G, G#, B
C BEBOP MINOR C, D, D#, E, F, G, A, A#
there is more possible scales you can find at the second website below.

To elaborate a little on arrangement, it seems the 25 or so songs I learned to play in a band from tablature, pretty much just went with a little intro then 8 or so bars repeated four to six times or so, then a few bars of two to three chords for the guitar solo or vocal, then a repeat of the 8 or so bars repeated four to six times or so again, another stagnant chord or two then maybe 16 instead of eight bars repeats or so thin the song ends with a little wiggle at the end. Then the whole thing in reverse for a different song does not seem to be anything unusual for the rhythm lead guitar part of the song, It definitely has to be simple like this, because all the repeated bars and parts have to be counted, and in a rock band you have to memorize this in your head, or otherwise only a mathematical genius could remember a song if it wasn't just simple repeating sections. I sure an professional singer, would need to ask you to change a section occasionally to go with a chorus to verse change or vice a versa, occasionally. I believe the first link below will have intro, course, verse, bridge, end, theory.

The bass guitar seems to play the root note at the beginning of the chords then off to another note, some say third some fifths mostly and then bounces back to the root note to form a rhythm. Some have said in previous posts above it should have a rhythm that interacts with the drum section, I don't think it has to because I like the bum- BUM - bum ----- BUM - bum BUM - BUM - bum - bum ----- BUM - bumbum - bum sound.


The best website I have found so far for learning musical theory would be this one. You do not need to be a college professor to understand this one. The website supports itself from probably just one advertisement which is probably something you should have anyway. You could probably learn theory in one or two days with this website http://mugglinw.ipower.com/chordmaps/index.htm.

And this other website is good for its scale and chord charts etc. http://www.instrumentnetwork.com

JC22

[The Fex]

tl;dr

[Aldanor]

[Sascha Franck]

jc21161, dude, I fail to understand how you even dare taking the time to post something that is so full of almost not to understand blurb and several factual mistakes.
I will just highlight these:

Now for using the minor key you do the same thing as above major but with these chords and scales. Chords for minor are [1st C minor i, 2nd D minor ii, 3rd E minor iii, 4th F minor iv, 5th G major V, 6th A minor vi, 7th B diminished vii.] The three basic chords for minor are, i, iv, (V or V7)

There's no E minor chord in C minor. The third degree of C minor is Eb and the chord building up on it is Eb min.

C BEBOP MINOR C, D, D#, E, F, G, A, A#

You entirely miss that the E should only be used as a passing note. Using it as a target not over, say, a C minor chord, will most likely make people cringe. Besides, I don't know where you copied this from (probably from a site that is stuffed with folks spreading false information), but the namings of the notes are wrong. In the context of C minor, D# has to be called Eb and A# has to be called Bb. In common scale theory, each note name is only used once, so as soon as there's a D used there's gonna be no D#. There's a few exceptions such as the altered scale and some halftone/wholetone stuff, there's also some esoteric scales, but for common stuff you don't find them often. The scale above, used in a C minor context, would be named enharmonically correct:
C - D - Eb - (E) - F - G - A - Bb.
And while some folks may call it bebop minor, that's just as nonsensical as it get's. Essentially it's a C dorian scale with a chromatic passing note (the E) added. Bog standard. For me, adding chromatic passing notes certainly doesn't justify having to look for a new scale name, especially in case said passing note doesn't have any influence on the harmonic things you do with it (which it hasn't, in this case).

Maybe you should better go back to the MIDI vs. audio discussion, you seem to have more of a clue about it.

- Sascha

[jc21161]

Dude, things are done differently in the United States, for one We don't poop outside. LOL

What I have written above is pretty much what is needed to write professional music (minus the verse course bridge strategies) but, there is many other ways of doing it but, you need just one. Even the best songwriters will have problems with the various minor chords and scales, cheating with music theory is not 100%, sometimes you may have to do something yourself to produce good music. Here is a better place than nowhere for good chord and scale combination tips, you all.

I was editing during the last post so it has changed a little. I'm sure there's something else I meant to put.


Thanks Sascha Franck, all honest and constructive criticism is welcome.LOL

[Sascha Franck]

Ok, I'm defenitely outta here now. You sir, are an ignorant bastard, resorting to personal insults when my original interest was trying to help you out with a few issues and questions you seemed to have. But apparently you know it all anyways. Perhaps you should write a book.
I would also like to tell you, that your english writing skills are just great, especially given that you seem to be no native speaker.

Good bye,
Sascha

[nuffink]

Quality flouncing there Sascha.

[Cordelia]

I'm thinking jc is 47 years old (born Feb 11, 1961?). Just a guess. If so, that's too old to be this thick. Gotta be a leg-puller.

What, you think people keep getting smarter as they get older? Not once they're much past the age of 22, in my experience. You're never too old to rock 'n' roll, you're never too young to die, and you're certainly never too old to be that thick. In fact, being thick gets easier as you get older.

My bad. I should have written- It's amazing that someone this thick has survived for 47 years.

[jc21161]

I didn't mean you, nothing personally towards you Sascha. Your too smart to be communist. LOL No I'm just playing, you are smart though hehehehe, us thick dudes do that. Us alien hybrids, can't help ourselves. I keep telling the mothership, you don't need human vivacity anymore, you're traversing the vastness of space "come on" but, I can't convince them of anything either. LOL When I type laughing out loud that means I'm really "laughing out loud" hehehhe.
Well it's about time for my medication now.

I'm really going about it the wrong way to coax information on music theory from you guys, ain't I?

There's got to be somebody out there that can elaborate on this strings topic, please please please please!

Thanks for coming back you guys.

Vivacity, definition - liveliness

[The Fex]

I'm really going about it the wrong way to coax information on music theory from you guys, ain't I?

Totally. You come across as if you're trying to teach us all something, while talking absolute nonsense, and then try to justify the nonsense you're talking with further nonsense, like;

Dude, things are done differently in the United States, for one We don't poop outside. LOL

What I have written above is pretty much what is needed to write professional music

Which begs the question.... why don't you write professional music?

Try making fewer statements. Try admitting the gaps in your knowledge, and asking more questions. Learn some humility.

My bad. I should have written- It's amazing that someone this thick has survived for 47 years.

Fair point....

There's got to be somebody out there that can elaborate on this strings topic, please please please please!

That's better. What's the topic? I can't read your earlier post. Life's too short.

[jc21161]

Thanks, The Fex,
Music theory and ethics are two different things. Even if you know a lot about music there are a lots of loose ends to tie, especially when they seem to be overlooked.

And you can't forget there are thousands of viewers to this string looking for answers, not just me.

P.S.
Not to toot my own horn but, my song The Mystery of The Night was up to number 13 for the classification of psychedelic rock and the top few percent in the rock classifications at soundclick.com. So to answer your question, I think I do write professional songs, I think I'll upload a few more, and maybe even give a little bit more advice on how to write good songs. Thanks for asking though. hehehe

[BertKoor]

@jc21161: stop looking solely at the theoretic side. Music is like a natural language. There is no kid that knows anything about proper grammar, yet still can speak a language fluently. The grammar is written afterwards, trying to explain why the kids speak the way they do.

In my opinion it makes more sense to do it the natural way, so just do whatever feels good and natural without ever looking at the theory. Then after some time it may come handy to have a look at the theory again. Music theory is mainly good for naming musical stuff which makes talking about it to other people easier.

But music theory really sucks at predicting what sounds good and what sounds nice. Because rule #1 is: there are no rules.