Does Knowledge of Theory Help You?

[Ogg Vorbis]

I've actually heard pop/rock players say that music theory classes/lessons "ruined" their playing or writing by taking what was once visceral and intuitive ("feeling") and applying "all these rules" which ultimately harmed their creative process.

I've heard, "Well, Beethoven broke all the rules and re-wrote them...just like Eddie Van Halen."

When I was a student I really worked very hard at theory and counterpoint to absorb as much as possible, even studying and practicing things outside of required classes.

I regarded theory as the "secret language of the masters" and that you had to have formal training so that you could "break the rules" with artistic mastery rather than out of ignorance.

Since then I have come to understand theory as a helpful tool, neither to be despised nor worshiped. It gives me a lens through which I can analyze music and acquire a deeper musical vocabulary.

What do YOU think? Does theory help or hinder? Does it provide "answers" to composition, production or performance? Do you have a good relationship with theory or is it a rocky marriage?

More importantly, do you use the principles you've learned every day?

-Eric

[jkleban]

Not sure if I agree with the POLL questions... To me, it is not, screw the rules rather than I still try to play what I feel but knowing something about the "theory" helps me (subconsciously) to KNOW WHAT to PLAY when I FELL it.

Make any sense?

Jim

[Ogg Vorbis]

Regarding the poll question... Please don't get wrapped around the axle. It's not a "serious, scientific" poll. In fact, ignore it because it was just me having fun with a little James Brown dialogue.

I'd much rather read answers than look at poll results.

[AndreasKrebs]

There are hardly such things as musical rules. Especially not ones that could be compared to rules in natural sciences. The rules that exist are more descriptions of historical and cultural "conventions" (mostly written down in retrospective).
So: yes, rules can be quite interesting, but are not always helpful if you want to create art.
Cheers,
Andreas

[Optomadic]

Theory most defiantly can help with natural playing of instruments. A music teacher once said to me its the difference of meticulously testing every note compared to understanding the proper notes and just being able to play the right one. Although you could just plunk away at keys, theory makes things quicker IMO especially when it comes to correcting phrases etc.

[zircon]

As part of my degree (Music Industry) I had to take a year of music theory plus a year of ear training, as well as modern arranging techniques and jazz theory. All of these things, combined with my years as a classical pianist, has GREATLY improved my ability to write and improvise music.

[Ogg Vorbis]

Whoops, let me thwart another hole that this thread could fall into..

I am using the word "rules" vicariously. Theory is NOT a set of rules and procedures, it is, AK has correctly stated, a set of conventions.

I've heard people call theory "a bunch of stupid rules" and I think it's an incorrect description.

I think of theory as descriptive labels and a common language by which musicians can discuss what's going on in music. It is an analytic tool and therefore 'post-hoc' rather than a system of compositional or performance instructions/procedures.

[Uncle E]

I've actually heard pop/rock players say that music theory classes/lessons "ruined" their playing or writing by taking what was once visceral and intuitive ("feeling") and applying "all these rules" which ultimately harmed their creative process.

Imagine if you'd stopped your theory classes after one semester, you wouldn't be able to play any more power chords and everything would have to end in a perfect cadence. Theory is pretty damn limiting before you get to modulations and cadential movement, wouldn't you agree?

[Liero]

I've actually heard pop/rock players say that music theory classes/lessons "ruined" their playing or writing by taking what was once visceral and intuitive ("feeling") and applying "all these rules" which ultimately harmed their creative process.

Imagine if you'd stopped your theory classes after one semester, you wouldn't be able to play any more power chords and everything would have to end in a perfect cadence. Theory is pretty damn limiting before you get to modulations and cadential movement, wouldn't you agree?

This is a joke, right?

[Ogg Vorbis]

I've actually heard pop/rock players say that music theory classes/lessons "ruined" their playing or writing by taking what was once visceral and intuitive ("feeling") and applying "all these rules" which ultimately harmed their creative process.

Imagine if you'd stopped your theory classes after one semester, you wouldn't be able to play any more power chords and everything would have to end in a perfect cadence. Theory is pretty damn limiting before you get to modulations and cadential movement, wouldn't you agree?

I think that's exactly what happened. Some guys quit after a semester because of a personal crisis trying to avoid parallel fifths and octaves in barre chords.

[llatham]

I've actually heard pop/rock players say that music theory classes/lessons "ruined" their playing or writing by taking what was once visceral and intuitive ("feeling") and applying "all these rules" which ultimately harmed their creative process.

I've heard the same thing. It's just because they're not very intelligent people though.

I've heard, "Well, Beethoven broke all the rules and re-wrote them...just like Eddie Van Halen."

Neither of the "broke all the rules". John Cage broke all the rules - and what did he get - silence. There's a continuum of "rule-breaking". What Beethoven and EVH did was to push the boundaries of what was being defined as music (or musical, etc.) in their respective styles.

Since then I have come to understand theory as a helpful tool, neither to be despised nor worshiped. It gives me a lens through which I can analyze music and acquire a deeper musical vocabulary.

That's what I keep trying to tell people. It's merely a tool. How you use it is up to you. The key point I think is, it's better to know it and not need it, than to need it and not know it!

What do YOU think? Does theory help or hinder? Does it provide "answers" to composition, production or performance? Do you have a good relationship with theory or is it a rocky marriage?

As a theory teacher, I have the deepest respect for the knowledge. But I understand that knowing how to resolve a German +6 enharmonically, while being useful in understanding Beethoven, is not going to be of much use to me when composing like Stravinksy (or hopefully, myself).

The problem is Eric, that those people you mentioned before have come away with the feeling that they've been subjected to learning a bunch of rules of some music by dead white guys, and it's not very practical in their musical pursuits. And to add insult to injury, many students have heard enough about it that they walk into their first theory lesson with a prejudice against it. Sorry, but that's just basically a "grow up" issue.

More importantly, do you use the principles you've learned every day?

Yes.

I'll relate an interesting story though - I was learning the 60's song "Apache" and in it, firmly in A minor, is a bridge section that alludes to C.

On the C chord, the guitarist plays G G G Ab G Ab G. Now me - knowing my theory - would have never tried that. So in that sense, it could "hinder" me.

However, not knowing theory doesn't mean you'd accidentally stumble on it either.

But, listening to lots of music, and being familiar with lots of things, and understanding them and being able to conceptualize them and communicate about them will lead to such musical discoveries and "happy accidents".

Best,
Steve

[Uncle E]

This is a joke, right?

No, you just missed the point.

[MOK19]

I've actually heard pop/rock players say that music theory classes/lessons "ruined" their playing or writing by taking what was once visceral and intuitive ("feeling") and applying "all these rules" which ultimately harmed their creative process.

Imagine if you'd stopped your theory classes after one semester, you wouldn't be able to play any more power chords and everything would have to end in a perfect cadence. Theory is pretty damn limiting before you get to modulations and cadential movement, wouldn't you agree?

This was, to a degree, the case with me. I took some theory with a private instructor for a few months, and then quit for lack of cash. It is currently hindering me. Though I have faith that it will cease to hinder me if I learn enough of it, and give it practice time. Unfortunately, I'm stuck with books at the moment. Hopefully I'll get where I need to be this way....

Yet, despite my new-found hangups on basic theory that I'm trying to avoid, I did gain some knowledge and musical sense from it. So while I'm not out of the woods yet, I'm not empty handed either.

[JohnDX]

I think theory helps greatly in many ways. My most recent theory-related endeavor is learning about form and composition, and that has helped me understand how to write music and to see new possibilities. It just adds to the creativity. It makes it much easier to think about music.

But of course, not all theory is very meaningful (depending on what you're trying to achieve), but imagine not even knowing the name of common chords, or the difference between a major and minor third.

[heathen]

theory confuses me. i study it, a little, think i understand a little, try to apply it a little, and end up confused. and i usually end up with something extremely non-musical to show for it. i think i would benefit from a structured enviornment, class, or whatever. i think that would help. but irregular attempted self study of whatever happens to interest at the moment doesnt seem to work...dont know what to do. it seems like it should help. as far as it goes where people say it "harms" their creativity, maybe they have just not internalized it to the point where it describes what they do naturally. i dont know.