KVR Audio

Ogg Vorbis · Post by **Ogg Vorbis** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:47 pm

If the letter A is the first letter in the alphabet, shouldn't it be the starting point of the keys (no sharps or flats)? At what point in history was this arbitrarily assigned to C?

tboulette · Post by **tboulette** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:49 pm

Funny, I was just thinking about this myself. I can only assume, without knowing or looking up the history, that at some point what we now call the natural minor was the basic scale (in which case A minor would have no sharps or flats).

Of course, the idea of having sharps and flats only happened when somebody thought it'd be cool to change keys....

Ogg Vorbis · Post by **Ogg Vorbis** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:00 pm

tboulette wrote:Funny, I was just thinking about this myself. I can only assume, without knowing or looking up the history, that at some point what we now call the natural minor was the basic scale (in which case A minor would have no sharps or flats).

Of course, the idea of having sharps and flats only happened when somebody thought it'd be cool to change keys....

I say we KVR cats change this. Screw the rest of the world, as of December 17, 2008 3:00pm MST, C shall henceforth be called A.

nuffink · Post by **nuffink** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:23 pm

tboulette wrote:Funny, I was just thinking about this myself. I can only assume, without knowing or looking up the history, that at some point what we now call the natural minor was the basic scale (in which case A minor would have no sharps or flats).

Of course, the idea of having sharps and flats only happened when somebody thought it'd be cool to change keys....

You may be right. The Aeolian is unique in the scale in that it is symmetrical. The Ionian and Lydian are mirrors; as are the Dorian and Phrygian, and the Locrian and Mixolydian.

Just a thought.

arturito · Post by **arturito** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 5:11 pm

mirrors, as if major thirds are beter devided in the middle? an minor 3 wants more to go

down or up?

shogger · Post by **shogger** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 5:16 pm

Ogg Vorbis wrote:If the letter A is the first letter in the alphabet, shouldn't it be the starting point of the keys (no sharps or flats)? At what point in history was this arbitrarily assigned to C?

It's just that I was bored and made it that way so that some people would ask why this is as it is. And it worked.

tapper mike · Post by **tapper mike** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:52 pm

Pythagoras made things up as he went along.

When he first started he could only consistently reproduce 7 tones across octaves. Hence when he found note could be reproduced consistently by cutting the length by half he named that point octave.
The lowest note he could reproduce he named A
ABCDEFG

As he worked out his scale(s) within this range he didn't work on harmony.
He created modes. The names of the modes were based on the local churches. by order of population.

Then he listened to how the scales tones interacted and studied harmonics.
His conlusion was that chords based on harmonics sounded more full ergo major chords. Those that had a weaker flavor he named minor.

Thru constant study he found not just the 7 original tones ABC etc but five more tones and thus the pentatonic scale was born. Rather then throw out his work he defined the new tones as sharp or flat.
After anaylzing the relationships of notes he came to the conclusion the first Major chord in the key we now know as C was infact a C chord he named the scale C Major or C Ionian.

Scales afterwards were defined by the distance between the notes and the distance was measured by the original 7 tones.

Ogg Vorbis · Post by **Ogg Vorbis** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:28 am

Hmm...

BLynx · Post by **BLynx** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:51 am

(deleted)

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Fri Dec 26, 2008 9:51 pm

Ogg Vorbis wrote:If the letter A is the first letter in the alphabet, shouldn't it be the starting point of the keys (no sharps or flats)? At what point in history was this arbitrarily assigned to C?

Musta been parallel with the development of the 12-key keyboard. Think about it.

In ye olde Greek theory, the 'basic' note was Gamma, or 'G'. Gamma Ut, to be thorough.
(This is where the word 'gamut' derives btw.)

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 6:57 pm

tapper mike wrote:Pythagoras made things up as he went along.

When he first started he could only consistently reproduce 7 tones across octaves. Hence when he found note could be reproduced consistently by cutting the length by half he named that point octave.
The lowest note he could reproduce he named A
ABCDEFG

As he worked out his scale(s) within this range he didn't work on harmony.
He created modes. The names of the modes were based on the local churches. by order of population.

Then he listened to how the scales tones interacted and studied harmonics.
His conlusion was that chords based on harmonics sounded more full ergo major chords. Those that had a weaker flavor he named minor.

Thru constant study he found not just the 7 original tones ABC etc but five more tones and thus the pentatonic scale was born. Rather then throw out his work he defined the new tones as sharp or flat.
After anaylzing the relationships of notes he came to the conclusion the first Major chord in the key we now know as C was infact a C chord he named the scale C Major or C Ionian.

Scales afterwards were defined by the distance between the notes and the distance was measured by the original 7 tones.

Are you kidding us?

Rottweiler · Post by **Rottweiler** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:17 pm

jancivil wrote:
tapper mike wrote:Pythagoras made things up as he went along.

When he first started he could only consistently reproduce 7 tones across octaves. Hence when he found note could be reproduced consistently by cutting the length by half he named that point octave.
The lowest note he could reproduce he named A
ABCDEFG

As he worked out his scale(s) within this range he didn't work on harmony.
He created modes. The names of the modes were based on the local churches. by order of population.

Then he listened to how the scales tones interacted and studied harmonics.
His conlusion was that chords based on harmonics sounded more full ergo major chords. Those that had a weaker flavor he named minor.

Thru constant study he found not just the 7 original tones ABC etc but five more tones and thus the pentatonic scale was born. Rather then throw out his work he defined the new tones as sharp or flat.
After anaylzing the relationships of notes he came to the conclusion the first Major chord in the key we now know as C was infact a C chord he named the scale C Major or C Ionian.

Scales afterwards were defined by the distance between the notes and the distance was measured by the original 7 tones.
Are you kidding us?

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 8:29 pm

Anyway, to try and begin, in a super-abridged fashion, to clarify the waters:

Pythagoras did do a coupla things. He established a 'monochord', that is to say a consistent length and tension of string stretched over a wooden base. THEN! he 'stopped' the string at some very simple spots, dividing it:

In half. That gives us 2:1, which a good deal later became known as an 'octave'*.
In thirds. One of the phenomena deriving from this move, was the ratio 3:2. Known to a 'modern' person as a 'fifth', even a 'perfect fifth'.
In fourths. According to what I just typed above, we get the 4:3 phenom. The 'perfect fourth' to a 'modern' person.

BEFORE there were anything adding up to something you'd reasonably call an octave, it is attributed to Pythagoras that the 2:1 (4:1; 8:1) phenom was tested against other phenomena to see if it summed.
(*: That 'octave' eventually came to be formed by two tetrachords with a disjunction, cf. our keyboard's G-F in a 'C scale'. Descending: A G F E; D C B A)

In the process of tuning more than one string, eventually 4 strings (a 'tetrachord'; in which your outside interval was a 'fourth'.), it was found that you get certain phenomena such as what became known as the 'tone', which were desirable in, say, melody. That deal might be thought of, let's call her a 'major tone', as a 9:8 ratio. Now. Are there, say, six of these tones which find their equivalent in the ever-popular 2:1 sound? Or, are 12 fifths totally consonant with an 'octave'?

Oh hell no! So, there were corrections, which apparently they called 'commas'.
Compare a 'ditone', 9:8 SQUARED = 81:64, with a 'pure third', or a 5:4. The diff is 81:80, which got called the syntonic comma, after Ptolemy IIRC. Eventually seven tones within the range of 1:1 and 2:1 became prevalent, and the 2:1 (or 1:2 if ascending; the process I described above derives the phenomena by tuning a descending series of strings.) was, natch, called an 'octave'.
Etc.

Also, the modes weren't named after churches, but after ethnicities, 'dorian' being the most morally desirable...

Etc.

Dean Aka Nekro · Post by **Dean Aka Nekro** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:14 pm

jancivil wrote:

NEKRO.MACHINE wrote:

And the moral of the story is...

Nekro

drumity · Post by **drumity** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:42 pm

tapper mike wrote:As he worked out his scale(s) within this range he didn't work on harmony.
He created modes. The names of the modes were based on the local churches. by order of population.

Oh yes and Dr. Pythagoras did get into his timemachine every sunday,

did adjust "At least damn 1000 years forward !"

visited the local churches and after an offering to the collection box

he discussed geometrical problems with the local inquisitor

and started a public-opinion poll which of the modes they prefered !

Most of them gave a *flower* and

in the meantime some of the muddiest plebs snaffled his key of the timemachine

and had overwhelming success as "The Kelly Family" in the 90s !!!

Why does the key of A maj have 3 #s?