Alchemy or Sylenth??? Forgive me.

[ozmoz2008]

Don't get me wrong, Alchemy cannot "replace" any other synth if one is really listening carefully to the specific sound qualities of the synth you love but from what I can tell of the majority of users here and on many other forums, subtle listening skills is not very common, nor is it much appreciated either (evidenced by all the A/B and blind tests of various analogue vs digital threads).

I am not necesarely a fan of Alchemy, but by playing with for a few hours and demoing Sylenth...The choice was obvious as for sound qualities in Alchemy...There is some sound stuff I don't really like in Sylenth as it is not useful in a mix(such as the supposely warm aspect...wich I like better in VSTs like Predator or Imposcar)...If you want so much ring in the mid frequencies..just boost them(I don't really suggest this but hey everyone it's own taste)

So yeah, I agree the listenning skills is something that takes years to truly master ...and it is is something that sometimes doesn't seem to be appreciate on forums

In the A/B test between Zebra and Sylenth, the above description is obvious about the sound qualities of each VSTs

No Sylenth for me ....even if I own around 50 VSTs (I didn't count them )

Sorry!

[bmanic]

It can't, not without a sync sample, as Alchemy cannot do hard sync. So, if we stick strictly to the VA engine, then alchemy will have extreme difficulty in producing sync sounds. It is possible to do a partial mimic of oscillator sync by modulating the pitch of several slightly detuned and narrow pulse waves but it'll still sound fake.

Hehe. So you're holding this plee about how Alchemy's VA with its zillion effects and filters not only can do everything Sylenth can, but even do it better and then you admit that the first request I have, can't be done with Alchemy's VA

Don't take it out of context. Sure, sync can't be done with the VA side but it is not impossible to duplicate in Alchemy. My first comment still stands, Alchemy can most likely do 80-90% accurate reproduction of of EVERYTHING Sylenth1 can, whereas Sylenth1 cannot do nearly anything that Alchemy can. It all goes back to the original posters question:

In my opinion, Alchemy is a far better buy keeping the above in mind.

EDIT: Keep in mind that there is a significant price difference. If money is an issue then Sylenth1 is of course very good value, however, so is Alchemy considering what you get. If you only need VA sounds and mind the extra 60 euros you need to get Alchemy, then of course I'd recommend Sylenth1 instead.

As a reminder, here was my first post of this thread (including all typos and weirdness):

Sylenth can't replace Alchemy whereas Alchemy can easily replace and exceed Sylenth. IMHO Alchemy is superior in departments. Better uninson (more control, better sounding), better filters, much better effects, vastly superior modulation possibilities.. oh and you get great granular and spectral synthesis with it as a bonus.

So, in short. In my opinion Alchemy is clearly the better buy. YMMV.

Cheers!
bManic

[thespecialist]

My first comment still stands, Alchemy can most likely do 80-90% accurate reproduction of of EVERYTHING Sylenth1 can, whereas Sylenth1 cannot do nearly anything that Alchemy can.

Sure, sylenth doesn't work with samples, so there you go. However, I can think of tons of other examples that Sylenth can do but Alchemy can't, at least its VA. This thread seemed to become interesting when you said you wanted to reproduce some stuff on Alchemy's VA and proof your point. To make it easier/more fair for you, I gave you an example of an original sound to reproduce on Alchemy and compare it to the reproduction on Sylenth. You said that couldn't be done. I could give you another example and it will probably end up the same way. And another etc ..

Oh well, whatever

[man-T]

.. strange, in my opinion it is exactly opposite. On a crappy small boombox/laptop speakers, sylenth1 can be thought of as ok sounding compared to some of the hardware/software competition but on high end equipment (genelec monitoring, prism sound converters, acoustically treated studio room) it's flaws are evident.. in my opinion. bManic

Strangely, i too have the fortune to work with equipment that is considered 'state of the art', but still i find the sound of sylenth very impressive compared to lots of other vst synths.... no flaws are evident here ( not a bit more than for instance a novation supernova anyway) ...
I do want to state that although i work with the best of the best studio equipment, that does not mean i am right ....

[fjolle]

edit:
nevermind.

[zerocrossing]

Well it was only a matter of time before I chimed in. Had to have some quality time with Alchemy first before I started spouting off.

Yes, Alchemy can do your basic VA sounds, as others have stated. One of my complaints about it's presets is that there's way too much of those types of sounds in it already. Possibly because Camel Audio was afraid of not appealing to people like the OP? Hard to say.

However, it's clear that with playing around in Alchemy for a few minutes that making your basic VA sounds with it is like using a wrench to hammer a nail... OK maybe a wrench with a special hammer surface. Yup, it's possible and even easy to do, but there's a better tool for it already and it's called a hammer. Sylenth1 not your bag? Take your pick, there are dozens of VAs on the market that all have different personalities. Korg Legacy Collection Analog Ed. is another I find to be awesome.

The beauty of Alchemy is really it's ability to import audio and screw with it. I was able to quickly replace audio in some of the presets with my own wacky stuff and get very cool results... results that Sylenth1 could never touch.

So if I had only enough money for one? I'd buy Alchemy and get a second job and start saving up for a more "vintagey" sounding VA. This might cause an argument but I do feel that the best instruments are not the "I can make any sound" types, but ones who have a personality and focus. Camel Audio's Cameleon, Olga and NI's Massive are great examples of this. While they may or may not be what you like, they have a "sound."

[bmanic]

My first comment still stands, Alchemy can most likely do 80-90% accurate reproduction of of EVERYTHING Sylenth1 can, whereas Sylenth1 cannot do nearly anything that Alchemy can.

Sure, sylenth doesn't work with samples, so there you go. However, I can think of tons of other examples that Sylenth can do but Alchemy can't, at least its VA. This thread seemed to become interesting when you said you wanted to reproduce some stuff on Alchemy's VA and proof your point. To make it easier/more fair for you, I gave you an example of an original sound to reproduce on Alchemy and compare it to the reproduction on Sylenth. You said that couldn't be done. I could give you another example and it will probably end up the same way. And another etc ..

Oh well, whatever

Huh? Looks to me like you are twisting things around. What other things are there that cannot be done with Alchemy in the "proper" way? Like I said, the basic VA sounds (unison detuned stuff which is by far the largest part of the presets in the Sylenth1 demo) can all be done very well in Alchemy. The specialized parts need some "tricks" to mimic but they can be simulated, to a degree.

What I don't understand is why you feel so defensive for Sylenth? We clearly only have different opinions. In my case I'm not impressed by it, perhaps because I already have that similar range covered by other synths (not just alchemy, I also have access to hardware that covers the same range) that in my opinion do it better.

It is simply a fact that the possibilities within Alchemy are of such a nature that it is theoretically possible to duplicate almost any sound Sylenth can produce, except the "exact" reproduction of the sound quality/essence itself. However, this was not ever under debate either afaik.

The original poster asked a question, which would be a better buy, Sylenth or Alchemy. I think it is Alchemy, you think it is Sylenth. I gave you a reason why Alchemy gets my vote, you did also somewhat give a reason why Sylenth would be the choise, so what is the problem?

As for the patch duplication. I was serious. It is very good programming practice and I do it quite a lot, regardless. I'm not out to prove anything, I'm more interested in learning by programming as many synths as possible. Before the days of VSTi's I used to do the same with whatever hardware synths I had access to. Obviously I couldn't afford every synth so I had to make due with what I had and hence learned how to mimic certain sounds of other brands of synthesizers, even though the architecture itself was different. It's not the means, it's the results that count.

Cheers!
bManic

[ozmoz2008]

As for the patch duplication. I was serious. It is very good programming practice and I do it quite a lot, regardless. I'm not out to prove anything, I'm more interested in learning by programming as many synths as possible. Before the days of VSTi's I used to do the same with whatever hardware synths I had access to. Obviously I couldn't afford every synth so I had to make due with what I had and hence learned how to mimic certain sounds of other brands of synthesizers, even though the architecture itself was different. It's not the means, it's the results that count.

Cheers!
bManic

I can see how patch duplication could be a learning point in Synth sound design...my point of view was mostly on the composition point of view...which I found too many people are trying to copy others sounds...which is not my cup of tea

You are right stating that the type of sound we hear on Sylenth is easy to find on other keyboard(vsts and hardware), but the type of twisted sounds you can do with your own samples in Alchemy is not the case...

So as for uniqueness...again Alchemy wins my vote!

[olepro]

Heck, I'll duplicate some of the sylenth presets on Alchemy and we'll see.

Now you're talking ! This should be fun.

Why try to copy a sound with its own down sides??? Sylenth is not that great sounding...you could manage to do good things with it but it is not a reference in my ears in anyway

Hehe. Ok if Sylenth is not that 'great sounding', let's make it easier/better for both you guys: try to reproduce an original sound with Alchemy that was reproduced with Sylenth1 as well. For starters it would be a nice test to hear that lead from 'The prodigy' in their track 'Voodoo people'. Adam just released it as well in his latest soundbank: http://www.adamszabo.com/mp3/Adam_Van_B ... 2_Demo.mp3 (starting 2:20). Let's see if Alchemy's VA engine can come any closer/sound better than this, I'd be highly, higly surprised

It can't, not without a sync sample, as Alchemy cannot do hard sync. So, if we stick strictly to the VA engine, then alchemy will have extreme difficulty in producing sync sounds. It is possible to do a partial mimic of oscillator sync by modulating the pitch of several slightly detuned and narrow pulse waves but it'll still sound fake.

Cheers!
bManic

Neither does Sylenth1 have osc hard sync.
The sound in the Sylenth1 demo starting at 2:20 is made with high filter resonance and distortion.

[fjolle]

edit: removed again. no point in posting in these threads

[kuniklo]

There's no hardsync in Sylenth either.

Without FM, AM, Sync or PWM without tricks Sylenth seems like a pretty limited workhorse VA to me.

[zerocrossing]

There's no hardsync in Sylenth either.

Without FM, AM, Sync or PWM without tricks Sylenth seems like a pretty limited workhorse VA to me.

Why are limits bad? I could point to a minimoog and say it sucks due to it's limitations but who would agree with me?

Alchemy's great but will we be talking about it's awesome filters a year from now? Probably not, because that's not what Alchemy is really about. A big complex instrument isn't better than a simple instrument.

Taking a visit to the real world, I look at my two main guitars. One, is "advanced" as guitars go. Active pickups, composite neck, double ball string tuners and a complex trem system that keeps the string in relative tune to each other while using the wammy bar. It's a great instrument and I love it.

My other guitar is stone age in comparison. Basic magnetic pickups, a beefy but basic strat style floating bridge, wood bolt on neck. Essentially a Strat-o-caster. I should toss it away right? I can make all the same sounds with the fancy guitar...

...but not really. The difference is one facilitates one type of playing and sound and the other another. Yeah, there's overlap, but not enough to ever say either is a direct replacement. A well crafted instrument, in hardware or software has a certain ju-ju that makes it a potential classic. I think it's that ju-ju that got Sylenth1 into the top 10 synth list in that Computer Music Magazine poll they did. Same with Zebra 2. I'll even defend Massive's position there although I don't totally dig it, myself, but I can see how others would.

[jeffb01]

Alchemy's great but will we be talking about it's awesome filters a year from now? Probably not, because that's not what Alchemy is really about. A big complex instrument isn't better than a simple instrument.

I don't have alchemy (yet), but I love the filters in camelspace and camelphat. Camel makes great filters. I'm not weighing in on the argument between the two because I think sylenth has some of the best digital filters I've ever heard.

[MitchK1989]

There's no hardsync in Sylenth either.

Without FM, AM, Sync or PWM without tricks Sylenth seems like a pretty limited workhorse VA to me.

Why are limits bad? I could point to a minimoog and say it sucks due to it's limitations but who would agree with me?

I'd say the minimoog can do kickass filter FM patches. Can sylenth do filter FM?

[kuniklo]

Why are limits bad? I could point to a minimoog and say it sucks due to it's limitations but who would agree with me?

Weren't we arguing opposite sides of this argument a few weeks ago?

I'm all for limits but I think that AM, sync and PWM should be the minimum feature set for any serious contender for a general purpose VA. Hell, the Arp Oddysey had all three in *1972* for crying out loud.

Even the earliest VA synths like the Nord Lead had all three and leaving these out severely limits your palette.