The Fight for FM

[daniel_baum]

on the subject of hardware vs soft: this will sound daft, but I honestly prefer my old DX21 to any of the software when it comes to bass and lead sounds. I am not going to try to analyze, or quantify that, and I don't think it really means anything, what with sound being such a seemingly subjective thing. But, yeah; I can see why some really hear the difference between the DX and FM7/8.
If you can find a TX81z, jump on that mothafucka!

Hi,

I've used my DX 21 in modern recordings and it still sounds really good. However, it was only once I started using it in digital recordings that I realised just how noisy it is. I find that I absolutely have to put it through a noise gate. It also has a 10 bit DtoA converter, which undoubtedly will make it sound different to any attempt to emulate it today. Maybe the two phenomena are connected?

[PaulSC]

On PC, there are additional contenders, but on Mac I'd say FM8 and Octopus rise above the rest.

Regarding other Mac-based options, there are several hybrids, such as Zebra, Surge, and Blue with advanced FM capabilities. (Want to control the rate of an LFO with an envelope? You'll need one of these hybrids, because neither FM8 nor Octopus can do it.) But each of these hybrids lacks one or more features you'll want in an all-around FM synth. Surge and Blue don't allow multi-stage keyscaling of the FM index. Zebra can't apply both feedback and a separate modulator to the same carrier. None of these three allows a zero-frequency carrier to be used as a waveshaper.

It's tough to pick between FM8 and Octopus, but here are the pros and cons as I see them:

OCTOPUS

+ 8 operators

+ nearly single-page interface

+ plays multi-zone samples and can run them through the filters in order to use them as modulators

+ arbitrary additive waveforms, and crude (static) additive resynthesis

+ more flexible mod routing (e.g. each operator can have its own pitch envelope)

+ more flexible filter routing (e.g. one of the two filters can process a modulator, while the other acts on the output of a carrier)

+ can save infinite number of envelope shapes to disk (for reuse)

- no LFOs (on FM8, you can MIDI-learn an LFO rate knob and have real-time control over the rate of periodic modulations; can't do this with the loopable envelopes in Octopus)

- disappointingly small number of parameters exposed for automation

- FX are nothing special

- no polyphonic unison

FM8

+ huge number of presets (although quality varies)

+ polyphonic unison with stereo spread

+ distortion/noise-source operator

+ easy page handy for tweaking settings across multiple operators quickly, and controls on this page make expressive MIDI-learn targets

+ preset morphing potentially interesting (although morphing applies to only a disappointingly small number of parameters)

+ better selection and quality of FX

- limited user slots for envelope presets

- limited modulation routings (not the FM algorithms, but other modulations such as tremolo and vibrato...)

- waveforms limited to relatively small number of preset shapes

- interface compartmentalized into lots of specialized pages

[whyterabbyt]

I just realized there's the source code of VOPM availible on the website. Maybe some designer here can take a look at it and find out what is different to the other software VSTi (and go on to make a 6-op version )?

its probably because the comments are in japanese, just like Yamaha used. its the source-code equivalent of magix pixie dust.

[living sounds]

I just realized there's the source code of VOPM availible on the website. Maybe some designer here can take a look at it and find out what is different to the other software VSTi (and go on to make a 6-op version )?

its probably because the comments are in japanese, just like Yamaha used. its the source-code equivalent of magix pixie dust.

Still waiting for that single useful on-topic posting of yours...

[ew]

ew

[whyterabbyt]

Still waiting for that single useful on-topic posting of yours...

i see that that sense-of-humour bypass is still holding.

the comments for the source code for VOPM are in japanese, moron.
ever done any software development, by the way? know much about trying to decipher someone else's code when there's no comments indicating what is being done?

thought not.

[living sounds]

the comments for the source code for VOPM are in japanese, moron.

So angry...

[whyterabbyt]

the comments for the source code for VOPM are in japanese, moron.

So angry...

are you? need a hug? awwww.

[lococarlos]

My FM programming skills are very poor still, but I'm leaning on Ableton's Operator. I considered FM8 for awhile but found Operator compared very favorably in terms of the basic sound, at least on the presets. It seems to have a lot of versatility too.

with true FM you will easily get crap or unstable results when messing with params, it's easier with PM. Again, different ways to achieve more or less the same, one is easier to make patches for.

That's interesting. Is there any theoretical or mathematical reason for this? Also, if you have any insights on how to become a better FM programmer, I'd be very appreciative

[Sonic Boom Samples]

Hi all,

I'm surprised that no one's mentioned Odo's FM synths.

I've used Purple 2 (four operator) quite a lot - it appears in my latest song if anyone heard it - and I'm now evaluating Double Six. These are the only FM synths I have ever used apart from real hardware Yamahas - I own a DX21 and I played a DX7 rather a lot in the 80's - and they seem to do the job quit equite admirably.

Factor in the price - Purple is free and Double Six is donationware - and it's hard to see what more you could want.

Just checked out Double Six. This one suffers from the same problems as FM7 and the other FM-VSTi. Here's a simple test: Do a simple chord sequence, quantize it and play it back with various of the bass programms in VOPM. Notice the crisp attack and clear texture. Now play back the sequence with any bass or key preset on any of the other synths. You might have to transpose an octave or even two. Notice how muddy the attack is, how weak the overall timbre is, the muddyness of the bass and the smear in the high end. And this is just entry-level 4-operator FM on part of VOPM.

I find this with all virtual synths though

I have a TX802, I use FM8 to audition sounds off the net quickly then send them to the hardware TX-802.

The hardware has a real presence down below for bass. If you run FM8 at 88/96khz it does improve a lot in the bass and top.

[stk]

See, my previous soundcard had DirectSound & ASIO drivers. For some reason (probably settings burried somewhere) its ASIO output had its stereo shrinked.
Should I have concluded:
-'DirectSound sounds better'?
-'my soundcard sounds better than.. itself'?
-'it sounds different, but I know it's some processing that I can probably disable somewhere, even if I can't find it'?

I have a fact, DirectSound & ASIO sound different on a system, but I certainly can't draw any dumb conclusion just because it 'sounds like'. So I go for the most logical explanation.

Quote of the year

[stk]

If you can find a TX81z, jump on that mothafucka!

meh. want mine? motherfuxxor makes my teeth hurt to program

[Vectorman]

This thread kind of reminded me that I really don't have an FM synth per se in my setup (apart from synths that do "some FM" like Zebra). I had a DX and TX back in my hardware days, but haven't ever bought an FM softsynth. I figured it was time to get back into it a little bit, so I've been demoing FM8 (which I had briefly demoed once before) and Toxic Biohazard.

In terms of programming depth, obviously FM8 wins. It does seem like the percussive patches lose some of their bite and hard attack in the lower ranges and get kind of mushy - I don't recall to what degree the DX's did or didn't suffer from the same thing. Despite being rather simple by comparison, Toxic Biohazard seems to offer a more "colored" and aggressive, less clinical sound than FM8. Its sound is pretty distinctive and it comes in such a concise, slick little package. As Geddy Lee once said of the Minimoog, it's sort of a "triumph of form and content, like the six and a half ounce Coke."

Layering similar patches from both FM8 and Biohazard got interesting, especially with percussive comping types of sounds. FM8 provided a clean, precise attack and Biohazard added some grit to the attack and filled out the sound. Those two synths do seem to be very complementary when layered together. Maybe the way to go for me is to just get both of them for my FM needs and use NI Kore to create and save stacks. Some of the most impressive and full-sounding synth textures on '80s records came from stacking different synths on the multitrack, so why not use that technique now when tools like Kore make it so easy to mix and match and save the results.

[Aroused by JarJar]

Hi all,

I'm surprised that no one's mentioned Odo's FM synths.

I've used Purple 2 (four operator) quite a lot - it appears in my latest song if anyone heard it - and I'm now evaluating Double Six. These are the only FM synths I have ever used apart from real hardware Yamahas - I own a DX21 and I played a DX7 rather a lot in the 80's - and they seem to do the job quit equite admirably.

Factor in the price - Purple is free and Double Six is donationware - and it's hard to see what more you could want.

Just checked out Double Six. This one suffers from the same problems as FM7 and the other FM-VSTi. Here's a simple test: Do a simple chord sequence, quantize it and play it back with various of the bass programms in VOPM. Notice the crisp attack and clear texture. Now play back the sequence with any bass or key preset on any of the other synths. You might have to transpose an octave or even two. Notice how muddy the attack is, how weak the overall timbre is, the muddyness of the bass and the smear in the high end. And this is just entry-level 4-operator FM on part of VOPM.

I find this with all virtual synths though

I have a TX802, I use FM8 to audition sounds off the net quickly then send them to the hardware TX-802.

The hardware has a real presence down below for bass. If you run FM8 at 88/96khz it does improve a lot in the bass and top.

Hmmm!

Well I know what you mean- my touchstone is unprocessed (only a little convolution reverb) acoustic sounds, which will often eat synthetic and digitally processed sounds alive in a mix, including sounds from hardware (to a lesser extent in general, but still). Real analog can do the same as you know.

But this is not an inherent or unavoidable flaw of computer audio in general or softsynth FM specifically. For example, this: http://dl.kibla.org/dl.php?filename=SimpleFM3sines.wav

is like Day Two software synthesis stuff, extremely simple FM with 3 sines and nothing fancy. There are no FX of any kind, it's just FM 101 straight out of the box, and the attack envelope is even deliberately softened a lot.

Go ahead and drop this "lite" example in with your TX and analogs and I think you'll find that it's got the main ingredient as far as essential solidity (and it can be a great deal weightier at will, but that's like Day Four or something).

Now in the real world market place, where vast amounts of patching, built in FXs, GUIs, voices, and instances are demanded, and CPU and RAM usage in general are costly, this little example of digital audio 101 is going to have a hard time, as it is more costly than something that sounds great for almost everbody, and most are likely going to dilute heavier sounds to fit them in the mix anyway.

Since you're an analog and hardware guy, I suggest you try Straightliner, which to my ears sounds neither "analog" nor "digital" but just like some unknown hardware synth with its own good character: "sounds", not "pictures of sounds", you know what I mean.

[zukskywalker]

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OK I'm not even a plebe here but six pages of FM discussion, hardware and software and not even a mention of Yamaha's final FM foray?

Let me introduce you to my leetle friend, the almighty FS1r.

Eight operators, plus formants, full DX compatibility, etc., etc.

Lookee, lookee: http://www.vintagesynth.com/yamaha/fs1r.shtml (http://www.vintagesynth.com/yamaha/fs1r.shtml)