Steven Slate 2.0: Signature Drumkits.. Drum MODELING??

[koolkeys]

(Steven, did you get my email? Just wondering!)

[memyselfandus]

we are almost done... I'll have a lot of video and audio soon...

[koolkeys]

I can say that these libraries sound fantastic. I spent lots of time at the SSD booth at NAMM and got to hear and see the Kontakt Player version of the library. I believe it will be released VERY soon, probably sooner than you are thinking. I don't know the official date, but my talks with Steven seem to imply that the product is completed. So shouldn't be too long at all. I would keep your eyes open over the next couple of weeks.

Oh, and this is not the BFD2 version I'm talking about. That won't be released right away. The Kontakt Player version is the one that is being released soon.

Brent

[koolkeys]

By the way, there are audio demos that I was able to get at NAMM on a disk that Steven was handing out. I won't share them here because I don't have permission. But audio demos exist. So hopefully they will be up soon.

Brent

[musictronics]

DEMO 3 www.stevenslatedrums.com/demo2/RHCP.wav (inspired by the drum sounds of the Red Hot Chilli Peppers)

I liked this one the best!

For purposes of appraisal it would be nice to hear some demos of the drums by themselves, without being swamped in reverb. I also have to wonder if 4 - 6 velocity layers per articulation is enough for all applications of this library. I guess, from the examples, that the library is aimed squarely at the 'rock' end of the market, where a variety of loud hits will probably cover most bases. I can't imagine programming any subtle snare work or a crescendo roll with so few velocity layers though. I agree that many of the 'top end' libraries do go a little overboard in this area, but 4-6 seems to be a bit retro! My preferred compromise is 16 velocity zones per articulation, with seperate left & right sticking where appropriate.

I'll have to ponder this one a bit further...

[koolkeys]

The limited velocity layers works very well. I have the previous versions of the library and I've never noticed them. They do cater more to the rock crowd, but they are great all-round drums.

About left and right hand hits, that's useless in a drum library. Good programming and sample grouping takes care of that. Recording both hands striking the drums is a waste of hard drive space and time.

Brent

[musictronics]

About left and right hand hits, that's useless in a drum library. Good programming and sample grouping takes care of that. Recording both hands striking the drums is a waste of hard drive space and time.

Sorry mate, that's absolute nonsense!

I respect your right to an opinion, but must heartily disagree with it

[koolkeys]

About left and right hand hits, that's useless in a drum library. Good programming and sample grouping takes care of that. Recording both hands striking the drums is a waste of hard drive space and time.

Sorry mate, that's absolute nonsense!

I respect your right to an opinion, but must heartily disagree with it

Alright, show me how it's useful. I mean no disrespect, but show me how recording both hands can sound better.

I really am serious. I want to see it. Not because I have a bone to pick with anyone, but because it really is a useless thing to sample.

When you actually play right and left hand hits, what benefit does it give you that you can't do with single hand hits? That's all I want you to prove or come up with a reason for.

Sorry if this is harsh, but this is one of my sampling pet peeves, along with programming piano libraries with left to right panning across the keyboard.

Brent

[bioLogic]

I'm with koolkeys on this one.

I have ns_kit7, the ultimate in velocity layer detail, left and right hits, and all make and manner of articulations for each and every drum piece (hand, finger, mallet, stick). And for the more intimate work you're talking about, it's what I choose.

But when I want more traditional 4 on the floor rock, or straight up funk, I'd turn to a kit with 4-6 velocity layers in a heartbeat, as long as it had a good amount of round robin variations--all other things being equal.

Obviously, the best of all possible worlds would be 16 velo layers as you suggested, AND extensive round robin. But I haven't found much use for the left hand articulations, except when they're mapped for playing "two handed" faster parts. But on other libraries w/o the alternate hand, I just map the same set of round robin hits to two adjacent keys, and it sounds perfectly convincing to my ears.

[koolkeys]

Round Robin is one thing, but actually recording left/right hand hits is really useless.

Velocity layers are good, and I used to think that the more, the better. Since I started using Steven Slate drums in almost everything, I am convinced that good programming is more important. Now, if you can have the best of both worlds, all the better. But you would be hard pressed to find an acoustic drum library that sounds better out of the box than SSD. It's just ready, and it gives you "that" sound. Of course, if you need electronic drums, it won't get you anywhere.

Brent

[musictronics]

About left and right hand hits, that's useless in a drum library. Good programming and sample grouping takes care of that. Recording both hands striking the drums is a waste of hard drive space and time.

Sorry mate, that's absolute nonsense!

I respect your right to an opinion, but must heartily disagree with it

Alright, show me how it's useful. I mean no disrespect, but show me how recording both hands can sound better.

Firstly, I think two of the key points here are variety and subtlety.

It is highly unlikely that two seperate hits with a stick (by a human) on a snare drum for example, in the course of a performance, will ever sound exactly alike. There will be subtle differences. The same subtle differences exist between hits with the right hand and hits with the left hand based upon factors such as the area on the drumhead where the hit occurs, whether the drummer plays traditional grip or matched grip with his left hand, the angle of the stick dictating how much wood comes into contact with the head, the fact that the left hand is usually stronger than the right, etc... These differences are subtle, as I have mentioned several times! They are unlikely to be noticed, or necessary for that matter, if all you want to do is drum replacement on a metal tune - and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, however there is no doubt that these sonic differences exist, that is a scientific fact. If you want proof, get a snare drum, mic it up, and record a bunch of hits with both hands. Load these into a sample editor and look at the waveforms - you will see the differences!

Secondly, that's how drums are played - with both hands (leaving the feet out of the equation for the purposes of this discussion).

I have two approaches to creating my drum parts. The most common method is finger drumming, where I would set up a map where, for example, B2 & C3 would be the left & right hand hits towards the centre of the drum, A2 & D3 would be the left & right hits towards the edge of the drum, G2 & E3 would be the left & right rimshots, perhaps C#3 could be the sidestick (an exception to the left/right rule), and so on. My index fingers are my sticks, and the right hand plays C3 and up, and the left hand plays B2 and down. I can quickly program extremely realistic and convincing drum parts this way. If both my right and left hands both hit their respective targets with exactly the same velocity, I want the subtle difference between a right hand hit & a left hand hit to still be there! My second method is to use a Roland SPD-S as a trigger, where adjacent pads are assigned to left & right hits respectively, and played with real sticks. In this way the entire surface of the SPD-S can be treated like a single snare drum.

There are several reasons for purchasing a sample library, and different people may have different criteria in mind when doing so. For me, the key issues are variety and subtlety, the ability to accurately emulate all aspects and articulations of the instrument that has been sampled. Others may have less demanding criteria, and that's fine too. At the end of the day it comes down to your own personal requirements - I want separate left and right sticking (where appropriate) and a minimum of 16 velocity levels per articulation in my drum libraries, and I'm unlikely to purchase one that doesn't measure up to those requirements.

To summarize, there are 'Horses for Courses'. Steven Slate's drum library is obviously a very fine product, as many extremely satisfied users, you included, would attest to. I just don't think it would suit me though.

Everyone will have an opinion about this, that is what makes this forum so wonderful. Mine is that the more variety of samples you have - the better it is. I use NS Kit 7 extensively, though not exclusively. Couple this with some great programming and the world is your oyster.

[koolkeys]

Having separate hits for left and right doesn't accomplish anything though. Having velocity layers and round robin sample variation does. It's more worth the time to not try and create an entire second set of samples recorded with left and right hands, but to record more layers and variations. It will sound exactly the same.

It only makes a difference when you are REALLY drumming. When "virtual" drumming, you don't have to worry about it. You can hit a snare drum in the same place with the right hand as with the left, and it will sound the same. And that is the variation you can record for a sample library. Record hits that go outside of the center of the drum, but it won't matter in a static drum sample which hand it's hit with.

Everything you said can be accomplished without actually recording the right and left hand both.

Don't misunderstand my uses of samples. I use them on everything. I have drum libraries galore, including BFD2. I value good samples and libraries, and I long for realism. I've discussed this in the past, and my opinion has been formed because of these experiences.

Even the makers of BFD2 will tell you that left and right hand hits are useless in the virtual world. Actually, they have said just that when asked about it.

I really don't mean to argue, or to degrade your opinion, but I do know a lot about sampling. And I've worked with dozens of library makers on various projects. And there is a reason why most drum sample libraries don't include hits from both hands. They serve no purpose in the virtual world that can't be done using single hand hits.

Brent

[musictronics]

I really don't mean to argue, or to degrade your opinion, but I do know a lot about sampling. And I've worked with dozens of library makers on various projects. And there is a reason why most drum sample libraries don't include hits from both hands. They serve no purpose in the virtual world that can't be done using single hand hits.

Brent

You have not degraded my opinion in the slightest, and a good argument is a beautiful thing!

I too know a lot about sampling, Ive been doing it for twenty years ever since the first Emulator reared it ugly little 8 bit head! I have recorded several drummers (some were almost human) and without exception there was a noticeable difference between their left & right hand hits on the snare drum. I could hear it, they could hear it, it was there!

More importantly though, I am an end user. All sample library sales are directed at we end users, and we reserve the right to purchase what fulfills our needs, and to reject the rest. I want separate left & right hand hits, therefore that's what I will pay for.

One final observation about Round Robin. It is a reasonable substitute for human 'randomness', and requires several different versions, in the same velocity range, of each articulation. Couldn't some of these be left hand hits instead of right? As you point out, what difference does it make in the virtual world, apart from maybe satisfying one more prospective customer. There are also algorithms that produce a pseudo randomness, instead of cycling around, based on the same principles. I may not want random though, or a computer deciding for me which sample should be played when I hit a key twice in succession. I may want to be the sole master of my music's destiny! Anyway, the Akai S6000's don't have Round Robin!

I have a rack of S6000s which are my 'band'. I usually only buy libraries where the wave files are exposed, or extractable, and build my own S6000 programs, with the aid of a piece of software I wrote to assist me in this arduous task. For drums programs I allocate (you've guessed it) 16 velocity zones for each keygroup, separate keygroups for different articulations including left & right hits, when available. As I indicated in a previous post, we all have our own reasons for choosing one product over another.

If BFD had forsaken 128 velocity zones (or 256 for the Andy Johns library!!! - how does that work?) in favour of left and right sticking on the snare and toms, I would probably have bought that too! As much as I enjoy a good heated discussion, you will never convince me that 32 right hand hits is as good, or as realistic, as 16 left and 16 right. I guess that makes me a purist - better than being a tourist I suppose...

[koolkeys]

Right and left hand hits may sound different in real life. However, in a sample library, it just doesn't work the same.

A hit with the right hand at one velocity on one part of the snare will sound the same as the left hand hitting the same part at the same velocity. In a normal drum groove, the left and right hands may hit the drums differently. However, there is no way for a sample library to KNOW when a right or left hand hit is needed. And if you have the velocity layers and/or round robin samples(which doesn't have to be random, and can be even better with scripting), you can emulate the difference in sound if needed.

It all comes down to programming. But in the end, the sound is the same. I have never heard a convincing audio demo to show that left/right hits are necessary. I'm open to HEARING one. I've used the NS Kit as well. But I never saw what was so special in those hits.

The reason I'm not convinced is because there isn't an audio demo anywhere that has shown to me an improvement in sound when using left/right samples. And I wish I could find the thread from the FXpansion guys where it was discussed. People swore up and down that it was necessary, but never could show why. The FXpansion team have recorded a LOT of drum samples. And they have what many consider to be the most realistic samples in the world. In that thread, they were extremely solid in their views that it isn't necessary and there were many reasons why.

As I said before, good programming, both in the sampler and in the grooves, will give you the same results. Not only will the music listener not notice, but I highly doubt that anyone else can really notice it as well IN A WELL PROGRAMMED kit.

I just want to hear audio demos that will convince me. I'm really open to change. I am not perfect and learn something every day. But on this, I've heard the arguments and I know how a real drummer "drums", and in the sampling world, there is very little, if any evidence that it actually makes a difference.

Brent

[musictronics]

Right and left hand hits may sound different in real life. However, in a sample library, it just doesn't work the same.

As interesting as this interchange is, and although I still disagree with the above opinion, I think you are missing the main point of my original comment.
I WANT separate left and right samples in my drum libraries.

It doesn't matter what the handle that flushes your toilet is made out of, it still flushes the toilet. But if you WANT a gold plated titanium handle, you are unlikely to purchase a rubber one, despite the vendor's insistance that it will do exactly the same job.

Your views on separate left and right hand hits take the agnostic approach, "Prove it to me and I will believe it!", whereas mine are those of the faithful "I believe it to be so!". However neither are relevant to the underlying point I have reiterated, which is that I would favour a product that gives me what I WANT, over one that doesn't.

I think we simply have to agree to differ on this one