The Fight for FM

[living sounds]

You know, I don't really care about accurate emulations and things like that as long as it sounds good. What I care for is pleasing sonics. An overall sound that works well in a mix and is fun playing. And in this case the DX7 delivers, so does VOPM, but the FM7/8 and most of the others don't.

[tony tony chopper]

But it's not just the algorithms, otherwise there would be many spot-on emulations

to emulate you have to offer the same capabilities (check. Not too hard to emulate 80's stuff) AND adapt data made for what you emulate (often failed). If the data isn't too well adapted, then it's your job. If you fail at it too, it still doesn't mean that the synth is inferior in sound.

[Compyfox]

I'm only curious when the first person starts to ask Q's of "where to get trance patches" for an FM synth?

I mean, cool beans - there are some for FM7, but I haven't seen (free ones) especially for all other synths (Phantom Included).


Whoops... I guess I just did that Q.

[living sounds]

If you view the universe as quantized, even the simplest analog synthesizer is working with an astronomical amount of data, so there you go.

A "little" off topic, but you know what, there have been recent findings in experimental physics that indicate the universe may indeed be quantized, and there is an idea in theoretical physics that supports this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle

And yes, I the CPU power currently availible is nowhere near enough to accurately model electronics in a real time music application. But there may be clever shortcuts. Still, this shouldn't have any bearings on digital FM/PM synthesis.
BTW, there are some absolutely gorgeous sounding analog FM synths, but they're really expensive as well.

[Lotuzia]

Besides the algorythms I fully agree that the enveloppes do a LOT in FM synthesis (and each Op should have its own EV for level and pitch).

Compared to classic adsr (Mainly analog at that time) the Dx series level/rate ones were quite a revolution at this time afaik.

Almost AS important as the accuracy of the enveloppes is the KB scaling, applied to OSC output. MOst of the FM patches do need KB scaling to be playable on a full KB range. I've seen thousands of poor patches wich are just unusable outside of a range of one octave.

Same goes for synths who are able of FM flavors but dont have the minimal features (one ev/osc, multiple purpose Kb scaling)required to even be able of recreating "vintage" Dx patches, and this incudes some quite capable real FM synths like Toxic for example.

All the above reduce the number of pretenders : FM7, Rhino, Sytrus, Blue, probably a couple of other synths I don't know or don't remember well enough (like Octopus).

A lot of synths can have a FM flavor nowadays but very few are able to build real complex and/or delicate pure FM patches if the minimal goal required is just to emulate at least the sound of so called poor HW synths wich were made 25 years ago ....... and still sound gorgeous as hell .......

And btw I'm not a FM fanboy, I love all kinds of synthesis.

My 0.002

LtZ

[MitchK1989]

Zebra has the full keyboard scaling options for it's FMOS (and velocity scaling as well) plus tons of LFOS, envelopes, and MSEGs

It's surprisingly good for FM... There are just only 4 operators (but you have to keep in mind that you can use the other zebra oscs as modulators, just not as carriers, plus you can throw filters, ring mod, waveshapers, etc. all in between carriers and modulators!)

[Aroused by JarJar]

If you view the universe as quantized, even the simplest analog synthesizer is working with an astronomical amount of data, so there you go.

A "little" off topic, but you know what, there have been recent findings in experimental physics that indicate the universe may indeed be quantized, and there is an idea in theoretical physics that supports this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle

And yes, I the CPU power currently availible is nowhere near enough to accurately model electronics in a real time music application. But there may be clever shortcuts. Still, this shouldn't have any bearings on digital FM/PM synthesis.
BTW, there are some absolutely gorgeous sounding analog FM synths, but they're really expensive as well.

That's an interesting idea, who knows? But however it may be in real life (don't think we can actually ever know?), of course in digital synthesis we're dealing with quantization.

I wasn't refering to modelling circuits, just to the "stepless" (or stepless for all practical purposes) nature of CVs for example. Which can be done in digital, it just takes space and horsepower. And then you are not stuck with that ever-present gray/silver/tin/charcoal overall tone color like the DX-7, but a myriad of other colors.

Yes I've heard slick analog FM and that's one reason I keep mentioning that the Yamaha FM synths are NOT the Holy Grail anyway.

[tony tony chopper]

our perception is quantized & limited anyway, so it makes sense to quantize data as much as required for human perception

[pdxindy]

But it's not just the algorithms, otherwise there would be many spot-on emulations

to emulate you have to offer the same capabilities (check. Not too hard to emulate 80's stuff) AND adapt data made for what you emulate (often failed). If the data isn't too well adapted, then it's your job. If you fail at it too, it still doesn't mean that the synth is inferior in sound.

I find the sound of FM8 weak. Not something that eq can fix because the timbre gets weak. The bass and high end kinda fizz out and overall there is not much presence. Using eq and external filtering I improve it to where I am satisfied for the things I use it for, but I am never feeling like this FM8 just moves me with its basic sound.

Maybe you are right that it is a failure of my skills, but then it is also a failure of the synth too because it is not like the factory sounds got it and mine do not. Have the vast arrays of features surpassed even the pro sound designers ability to grapple with them all? But if you are right, just saying so is no help. Please demonstrate with some audio presets.

FM8 uses very little cpu. Maybe NI can make an update with an ultra mode like Massive. Would that do something sound wise? I don't know. I am no expert in FM sound design or in the use of many FM synths. I can only say what I hear with my ears.

[tony tony chopper]

FM8 uses very little cpu. Maybe NI can make an update with an ultra mode like Massive. Would that do something sound wise?

how much power do you think you need to process the same simple algo that a chip of the late 80's was using?

[pdxindy]

BTW, there are some absolutely gorgeous sounding analog FM synths, but they're really expensive as well.

I quite like the sound demos for FXpansions upcoming Cypher (part of Synth Squad). Very impressive sound character!

[pdxindy]

FM8 uses very little cpu. Maybe NI can make an update with an ultra mode like Massive. Would that do something sound wise?

how much power do you think you need to process the same simple algo that a chip of the late 80's was using?

I did think of that... But from your perspective the algo's are the same already so a moot point.

I was contemplating that as far as maximizing FM8 sound quality, not emulating an old synth.

[tony tony chopper]

I was contemplating that as far as maximizing FM8 sound quality, not emulating an old synth

Well if you're saying that FM sounds weak in general, it does. I think that's the problem with FM7's patches (that I don't like either): they sound FM. But not just what FM is good for, it gives a wide range of FM presets that sound.. FM.
That's why very little presets in Sytrus are purely FM, FM is just unimpressive alone, unless you want bells or bass.

[living sounds]

Well if you're saying that FM sounds weak in general, it does. I think that's the problem with FM7's patches (that I don't like either): they sound FM. But not just what FM is good for, it gives a wide range of FM presets that sound.. FM.
That's why very little presets in Sytrus are purely FM, FM is just unimpressive alone, unless you want bells or bass.

Yea, but I've got hundreds of great sounding bell and bass patches for my TX7, but not a single one that moves me in FM7/8. It's not the patches.

[bmanic]

You know, I don't really care about accurate emulations and things like that as long as it sounds good. What I care for is pleasing sonics. An overall sound that works well in a mix and is fun playing. And in this case the DX7 delivers, so does VOPM, but the FM7/8 and most of the others don't.

Are you sure you ain't mistaking the crappy DA converter + your mixer/sound card input as the problem? A yamaha DX7 does sound different to sytrus/FM7/whatever, no matter how hard you try to match the sound. If we'd have digital outputs on the old things then I'm pretty sure it could be 100% the same. However, most people run their old FM synths through a mixer first then to the sound card of their choice. This alone, already affects the sound. Are you sure this is not what you are hearing? If so, run your soft synths on a laptop, buy some really crappy sound card and bounce it back to your DAW. Voila.. you get the "conversion" of the 80's.

Cheers!
bManic