KVR Audio

petew69 · Post by **petew69** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:38 pm

Hi Folks!

I was just wondering if theres anybody who knows anything/ has had experience of music related insurance?

Basically, after 3 years of teaching myself to produce electronic music, I have been offered a contract on the first EP I sent out.
On reading through the contract, it has a 'hold blameless' indemnity clause, which means that any copywright issues will be pointed directly at me and the company will be able to sue me for the amount of damage they could possibly sustain.
I was looking at Professional Indemnity Insurance to protect me from Accisedental infringment of Copywright?
Had anyone got any suggestions on companies that specifically deal with this kind of insurance?

rlahalla · Post by **rlahalla** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:11 pm

petew69 wrote:Hi Folks!

I was just wondering if theres anybody who knows anything/ has had experience of music related insurance?

Basically, after 3 years of teaching myself to produce electronic music, I have been offered a contract on the first EP I sent out.
On reading through the contract, it has a 'hold blameless' indemnity clause, which means that any copywright issues will be pointed directly at me and the company will be able to sue me for the amount of damage they could possibly sustain.
I was looking at Professional Indemnity Insurance to protect me from Accisedental infringment of Copywright?
Had anyone got any suggestions on companies that specifically deal with this kind of insurance?

Hey, welcome to KVR. First off - did you actually sample any copyrighted material? If so, you need to have the sample(s) cleared through a professional copyright clearing service. This costs money. People need to understand that it is NOT OK to use copyrighted material without clearance. If you get caught without permission, the label WILL get sued. If the label gets sued, you WILL get sued. It's _your_ responsibility to make sure those things are cleared up first. And you can't just go get insurance for that type of thing. And definitely not 'accidental' infringement. You either sampled something or you didn't. You can't accidentally infringe on that dope beat you sampled. Why would an insurance company willingly give you insurance for something like that? I could just hear them asking you these questions while you're applying for the insurance:

YOU: Hi, I'm looking for Accidental Copyright Infrindgement Insurance.
THEM: Ok, so did you sample anything without clearing it first?
YOU: Yes.
THEM: Ok, well you've been denied. Thanks for coming in.

So yeah. Maybe I'm pretty far gone on this, but I've had multiple contracts where I've had to pay an assload in clearance fees. If I could have just purchased some insurance instead, that would be great.

BTW - here's an article for you to read. Not exactly the same, but applicable nonetheless: http://www.insurancejournal.com/magazin ... /59009.htm

buscemi · Post by **buscemi** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:23 pm

Legal advice is commonly sought from someone working in the legal profession. I'd recommend finding a good lawyer to review this.

Stupid American Pig · Post by **Stupid American Pig** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:29 pm

yeah, I dunno that any lawyers use this site/admit to their profession here, best to talk to one of them about IP liability.

ozmoz2008 · Post by **ozmoz2008** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:58 pm

Stupid American Pig wrote:yeah, I dunno that any lawyers use this site/admit to their profession here, best to talk to one of them about IP liability.

It could cost $2000 to hear what you probably know already...and at the end you either have to sign the contract or pass on it...they can't change much about what's ask in your contract

As for your responsibility part...you are always responsible for your music and creation no matter what...so if something is not cleared...it is still your responsibility. You can always ask for some help through your copyright society, usually they have lawyers that know pretty much all you have to know about copyrights...and it doesn't cost anything. In US I think it's BMI or ASCAP...here, in Canada it is Socan and Sodrac.

Good luck!

eduardo_b · Post by **eduardo_b** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:10 pm

rlahalla wrote:You either sampled something or you didn't.

I think this is the entire issue in a single sentence. I'd have a list of anything used in the music that was taken from any other source, including libraries you own and have the legal right to use in commercial work. That way, if someone claims you've sampled their stuff, you have the ability to prove otherwise. I don't see any way to not have that clause in a record contract given that the record label isn't going to take responsibility for the sources within your work.

BertKoor · Post by **BertKoor** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:39 pm

Apart from the obvious sample clearance issue, there's also the risk of being accused of unknowingly copying someone else's work: Plagiarism! It happened to Madonna: four bars of "Frozen" sounded too much alike "Ma vie fout le camp" written by Salvatore Acquaviva. Read up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frozen_%28 ... Plagiarism and hear:
Not much one can do about that, apart from trying to be as original as possible...

eduardo_b · Post by **eduardo_b** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:59 pm

BertKoor wrote:Apart from the obvious sample clearance issue, there's also the risk of being accused of unknowingly copying someone else's work: Plagiarism! It happened to Madonna: four bars of "Frozen" sounded too much alike "Ma vie fout le camp" written by Salvatore Acquaviva.

Unknowingly "copying" someone else's work is far from impossible. Few seem to understand that coincidence is just that, and regardless of the odds against it, it still can happen...and more than once. There's really nothing to be done regarding this possibility. And it's certainly not plagiarism, which requires intent.

buscemi · Post by **buscemi** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:09 pm

ozmoz2008 wrote:
Stupid American Pig wrote:yeah, I dunno that any lawyers use this site/admit to their profession here, best to talk to one of them about IP liability.
It could cost $2000 to hear what you probably know already...and at the end you either have to sign the contract or pass on it...they can't change much about what's ask in your contract

As for your responsibility part...you are always responsible for your music and creation no matter what...so if something is not cleared...it is still your responsibility. You can always ask for some help through your copyright society, usually they have lawyers that know pretty much all you have to know about copyrights...and it doesn't cost anything. In US I think it's BMI or ASCAP...here, in Canada it is Socan and Sodrac.

Good luck!

Might not be an accurate cost and it is often a good investment to have a lawyer review a contract. Some people wouldn't bat an eyelash at spending decent money for a piece of kit, but for a service that could save you (or help earn) many thousands or make/break you overall it becomes an issue. I guess you have to prioritize. As a business owner, I never say "I'm sure I know that already, or could look it up and find out" - though the idea of leaning on organizations for information is great. I do the same with SCORE for small business concerns.

ozmoz2008 · Post by **ozmoz2008** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:33 pm

buscemi wrote:Might not be an accurate cost and it is often a good investment to have a lawyer review a contract. Some people wouldn't bat an eyelash at spending decent money for a piece of kit, but for a service that could save you (or help earn) many thousands or make/break you overall it becomes an issue. I guess you have to prioritize. As a business owner, I never say "I'm sure I know that already, or could look it up and find out" - though the idea of leaning on organizations for information is great. I do the same with SCORE for small business concerns.

This was a cost on a contract I've signed in the past...and even if you have all the advice from the lawyer...when you signed your first record deals...you really don't have much bargainning power...so at the end what the lawyer is telling you is pretty close from what you were thinking...and you either signed the contract or pass on it

This is a totally different reality when you are well known though...

As for copyrights things...yes it is always a good thing to ask your authors rights society some questions if you are not sure about things...they could have also some reference contracts, maybe some other organization such as writers ones could also give you some reference contracts for you to use.

But I totally agree with you on business contracts, it is something different...and for some specific cases, lawyers are usefull...I was talking about first record deals mainly...and it also all depend on what kind of money the record company offers you up front...if it's big..then 2000 isn't much to risk

petew69 · Post by **petew69** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:55 pm

Hi guys,

Thanks for your responses.
I havent lifted any samples from songs or copied any riffs verbatum. I have used percussion sounds but these were from a sample CD website and checked that they can be used in music.
I have also checked the terms and conditions of the instruments I have used as regards to the presets I used, they are fine too.

Basically what I wanted is insurance protection just in case.

I have been in touch with an insurance broker and they said they can do it, I just wondered if anyone on here had tried to do the same thing?

Record Contracts