The Fight for FM

[Aroused by JarJar]

Btw, before testing, let's agree that a sine out of a DX7 is a sine like one out of FM7 (and not a colored one due to something else, otherwise we're not talking about the synthesis anymore, and this distortion can be achieved with post-effects in software too).
The DX7 should be producing slightly noisy sines (I assume) but not one with overtones, that is.

Otherwise, if a sine out of the DX7 isn't a sine, let's first question the recording method/tools.

No, no, no! That's rigging the whole test from the start! The fact that the "sine" in a particular synth is or isn't actually a sine is part of the character of the synth. And those kinds of distortions can NOT be replicated afterward, especially in extremely non-linear "butterfly wings creating a storm" world of FM.

[living sounds]

Btw, before testing, let's agree that a sine out of a DX7 is a sine like one out of FM7 (and not a colored one due to something else, otherwise we're not talking about the synthesis anymore, and this distortion can be achieved with post-effects in software too).
The DX7 should be producing slightly noisy sines (I assume) but not one with overtones, that is.

Otherwise, if a sine out of the DX7 isn't a sine, let's first question the recording method/tools.

I've tried this with the TG77, the sine coming out of it had a much punchier attack (which, of course, has more to do with the envelope). I don't remember if it was a perfect sine otherwise though. In general, what comes out of hardware synths isn't free of distortion, so you won't get a perfect sine. But the question remains if the distortion is aplied within the synthesis engine or just later on (e.g. by the converter).

[living sounds]

Wow I'm trying VOPM, I don't get anything of those confusing settings. Can't manage to make it output just a sine. I also get stuck tones, or timbre randomization while I'm not seeing something that looks like randomness.
I guess someone will have to help. And also post a good preset bank because it doesn't come with any (well, 5 presets that suck).

Edit: ok the blank patches seem to output a normal (little noisy) sine.

there are tons of presets in those 5 patches.

[tony tony chopper]

And those kinds of distortions can NOT be replicated afterward

It's DIGITAL. So any distortion would come after the synthesis, on the whole output, so yes you can replicate it afterwards. But anyway, it doesn't matter, VOPM produces a normal sine.

[whyterabbyt]

If you're a software developer, sit down and try to come up with something that sounds as good as that ancient hardware, don't complain.
If you don't hear these differences, maybe developing music software is not for you.

translation : "If you're a software developer, then even if 99% of your customers are perfectly happy with your products and do think it sounds as good as that ancient hardware, you should waste an unending amount of your time and effort catering to a tiny self-styled elite who think that their opinions on what sounds sufficiently good are more valid than everyone else's. And don't you dare defend your position, or argue with them.
Clearly, since you don't attribute the differences to the obvious inferiority of your software, as this tiny self-styled elite of non-developers do, then they are clearly the only ones able to decide how (or even if) you should carry out your business."

[whyterabbyt]

I've tried this with the TG77, the sine coming out of it had a much punchier attack

[tony tony chopper]

there are tons of presets in those 5 patches

Indeed. Can you point me one you like? Because they all suck equally to me. I feel like playing with that horrible FM bank that Windows was playing MIDI files through.

[whyterabbyt]

No, no, no! That's rigging the whole test from the start! The fact that the "sine" in a particular synth is or isn't actually a sine is part of the character of the synth. And those kinds of distortions can NOT be replicated afterward, especially in extremely non-linear "butterfly wings creating a storm" world of FM.

so what are you talking about? Is this a quest for good FM or for good emulation of the flaws of an ancient FM synth?

[Aroused by JarJar]

And those kinds of distortions can NOT be replicated afterward

It's DIGITAL. So any distortion would come after the synthesis, on the whole output, so yes you can replicate it afterwards. But anyway, it doesn't matter, VOPM produces a normal sine.

No, it's DIGITAL. So you can eliminate, or deliberately implement, any distortion you desire, at any stage. Replicating for example the absence of the *32 partials in a saw oscillator (a strange feature of one of my analogs) afterwards... well it's possible with tons of processing, but why? when you can program it in from the beginning.

[living sounds]

there are tons of presets in those 5 patches

Indeed. Can you point me one you like? Because they all suck equally to me. I feel like playing with that horrible FM bank that Windows was playing MIDI files through.

I don't think this synth can produce spectacular sounds. What I'm talking about is the general tone. Listen to the tightness of the envelopes, and notice the absense of an aggressive high end that so often plagues the plugin world. Like I said, someone should have a look at the coding of the synthesis engine (if possible) and apply it to a 6-operator synth.

[tony tony chopper]

So you can eliminate, or deliberately implement, any distortion you desire, at any stage.

it's digital of the late 80's, they surely didn't implement something costy in processing for useless reasons. At that time you tried to get the most out of nothing. Just remember the video games you were playing at that time, and how much the hardware to run them costed.

[Aroused by JarJar]

No, no, no! That's rigging the whole test from the start! The fact that the "sine" in a particular synth is or isn't actually a sine is part of the character of the synth. And those kinds of distortions can NOT be replicated afterward, especially in extremely non-linear "butterfly wings creating a storm" world of FM.

so what are you talking about? Is this a quest for good FM or for good emulation of the flaws of an ancient FM synth?

You should read what I write before commenting, I think.

It is NOT about emulating ANYTHING, the main thing is about making a good, "real" solid musically useful sound. Who other than a nut with some ax to grind would disagree with that beats me.

Quality sound is NOT a flaw. It is a feature that appears by accident or design or both. And once again, I don't give a shit about exactly emulating DX7s, and I doubt that many people actually, really, do. People want FM that doesn't sound "weak", as far as I can tell.

[tony tony chopper]

anyway, plz point to a VOPM preset that sounds good. Even though I don't understand anything (except the OP algo) of that UI (and it being japanese doesn't help), I'll try to replicate it.

[Aroused by JarJar]

So you can eliminate, or deliberately implement, any distortion you desire, at any stage.

it's digital of the late 80's, they surely didn't implement something costy in processing for useless reasons. At that time you tried to get the most out of nothing. Just remember the video games you were playing at that time, and how much the hardware to run them costed.

"digital of the late 80's" is of zero interest to me, and when the chaff blows away I think it actually is of little interest to many people at all.

Why not find your own "distortions", or whatever, that make FM sound good?

[tony tony chopper]

"digital of the late 80's" is of zero interest to me

& your point is..?

Why not find your own "distortions", or whatever, that make FM sound good?

I first need to know what is good-sounding FM. I've installed VOPM and I'm only hearing crap.