Infinite Player Questions...

[zedd]

Hey Squids,

I posted this a week ago in the last GB thread, but it appears you are no longer following that one. A few of us have been craving a more detailed manual and/or a look at some of those video tutorials so that we can understand some of the IP stuff that ain't so obvious.

In the meantime, I'd really love a couple of quick answers to my MIDI channel questions so that I can start working with IP effectively. After a fair bit of trial and error, I figured out some of the stuff from my previous batch of questions, but the following questions are still lingering:

(1) I am having trouble getting the first instrument loaded to NOT load in OMNI mode. If I load a Kit first it always becomes OMNI. I could manually change each kit piece to a desired MIDI channel, but that is tedious.

If I load an output and then load the Grooves first, they are automatically assigned to MIDI channel 1. But if I try to load a kit afterwards, each kit piece will then be assigned to a different MIDI channel.

--1a-- How can I load the kit so that all the kit pieces are automatically assigned to MIDI channel 1, for example?
--1b-- If I accidentally load a kit so that becomes assigned to OMNI, is there a way to quickly change all pieces of the kit to a specific MIDI channel?

And if these were the questions you were looking into, then perhaps you can quickly explain the process YOU use to load up a kit and a corresponding groove set so that notes from the kit and the grooves don't overlap.

Currently, if I load a kit in which all the pieces are set to OMNI, then those kit pieces will play when I hit the key for one of the grooves. I don't understand how I can quickly get these things onto separate MIDI channels without manually changing the channel for each kit piece one by one.

Many thanks,

Zedd

[Chester Desmond]

Currently, if I load a kit in which all the pieces are set to OMNI, then those kit pieces will play when I hit the key for one of the grooves. I don't understand how I can quickly get these things onto separate MIDI channels without manually changing the channel for each kit piece one by one

There is no 'quick way' as far as I know. but see below:

I'm not at my PC now, but I think this should all be applicable, assuming that the options in IP are the same as Kontakt 2-3\Kontakt 2 player.. (I'm not sure of the limitations of IP)

If you go into the 'handling' area\tab of the 'options' you can set it to one of two settings:
1) Load each new instrument in "omni" mode
2) Load each new instrument to the next available midi channel

I don't believe there is an option to "always load next instrument to Channel 1" (for example).

Now neither one of those options will really help you in this case, although once you manually set the channels on each instrument you can save them all as a multi (collection of instruments) and each time you load the multi the midi channels will be as you set them, so the manual setup would only have to be done once. I also think the instruments will retain this info if you save them on an individual basis (rather than a multi).

Another way of approaching it:
The programming of the instruments likely has the same range of notes in use so the overlap is unavoidable but you could transpose one of the instruments (either the single hits or the loops)down or up so that each instrument occupies a unique range of keys, yet responds to the same midi channel.

Not sure if any of this really helps you. Squids would be the authority but thought I'd mention this stuff until he sees this.

[zedd]

Thanks for your response Chester.

If you go into the 'handling' area\tab of the 'options' you can set it to one of two settings:
1) Load each new instrument in "omni" mode
2) Load each new instrument to the next available midi channel

I don't believe there is an option to "always load next instrument to Channel 1" (for example).

I have played with those settings and you are right that that is not an option.

And I guess the problem is that Kontakt seems to see each drum kit piece as a separate instrument, so you are either limited to loaded the kit as OMNI, or with each kit piece spread out over numerous MIDI channels.

...once you manually set the channels on each instrument you can save them all as a multi (collection of instruments) and each time you load the multi the midi channels will be as you set them, so the manual setup would only have to be done once. I also think the instruments will retain this info if you save them on an individual basis (rather than a multi).

That is good to note, and may have to be the most effective workaround until we have more loading options. But man that is tedious to do for every kit with cowbells, crashes, rides, splash cymbals and a bunch of tom instruments which may or may not have a purpose in the kit (usually they don't... I'm not sure I have ever seen a tom 1 or tom 2 that produces any sound).

Another way of approaching it:
The programming of the instruments likely has the same range of notes in use so the overlap is unavoidable but you could transpose one of the instruments (either the single hits or the loops)down or up so that each instrument occupies a unique range of keys, yet responds to the same midi channel.

Not sure if any of this really helps you. Squids would be the authority but thought I'd mention this stuff until he sees this.

Squids briefly talked about this in another thread last night. I am cutting and pasting his response here:

Yes, the idea of using the grooves and the kit as it currently is was to put the kit and the grooves on separate midi channels because otherwise they overlap. However, I've come up with what I think is a better system for it. I mentioned it in the other thread. Right now we're working on an update that has subsets of grooves that go together mapped to C6 and above chromatically for up to 2 octaves. This can play along side the full drum kit all on the same midi channel. As we're doing it I can see if it is entirely necessary that it is even in Omni as opposed to say... midi channel 10? I'll find out about what the deal is on that exactly.

I'm not sure how convenient such a set up is going to be. For myself, I always have my keyboard transposed up two octaves just so that the meat of the keyboard is closer to my location in front of the computer... so my highest note is C5 unless I modify my keyboard setup and/or trigger those higher notes from within my DAW.

Having the drumkits and the grooves playing together on the same MIDI channel is not my concern... and may not even be desirable. As long as they are both being processed through the same outputs, I don't care if the kit and grooves are on different MIDI channels. Needing to work with them both at the same time is an unlikely scenerio for me, anyway. I just want to quickly assign the drum kit to a specific channel so that I can use the OTHER channels to load as many grooves that I might need to construct a supporting drum track.

I have no doubt that the solutions are coming!

[ynot]

i could be wrong but the way i seem to understand the tom situation (from the kits i have anyway) is that toms 1,2 & 3 are the higher toms played w/ the left hand in IMAP,toms 4,5 & 6 are lower-right hand toms.since all the kits dont have the same # of toms,1 & 2 or even 3 may be empty to stay consistent w/ the output multi having the lowest toms on the right hand side(floor tom being tom 6).this way you can mix & match kit pieces from different kits.for example on a 5 tom kit,tom 1 is actually labeled "tom1 P2" meaning that it is position 2 although its the 1st tom(P 1 is empty).so you could then use a P1 tom from another kit if you so desire.a custom kit may not make much sense if your using them w/ the loops,but definately a cool option if your just using the kits.it's just to make it more versitle i think.hope that helps.

[EDIT]
i just checked the instruments folder,each tom is available pre mapped in each of the 6 positions,so you could place any tom in any P# to further customize it.

[zedd]

...tom 1 is actually labeled "tom1 P2" meaning that it is position 2 although its the 1st tom(P 1 is empty)... hope that helps.

Thank you ynot. That does help. I was completely unclear on all the P1 P2 P3 stuff. Now I think I understand.

In cases where we don't want to add custom toms I am assuming that it is safe to simply delete the unused tom instruments and also remove the unused tom channel outputs.

It sure would be nice if the new version of Kontakt player will allow the output channel LED display to be mirrored in the actual instruments. It is so frustrating to be looking at an instrument and not knowing whether or not it is producing sound (and whether you are even editing the right instrument)!! The little MIDI icon in each instrument flashes whenever any MIDI is being played, so that is not an indicator for the activity of a particular kit piece. And since the LED displays don't do anything in the multitrack instruments, the only way to be sure you are editing (or deleting) the intended tom or cymbal, is to first MUTE the instrument in to double check that it is connected to the note(s) you are playing.

[ynot]

you should be able to remove toms and theyre channels with no problem.just remember that they are routed to overheads,rm & misc channels as well,so you cant just remove the tom channel or youd still have bleed in those.youd have to remove the tom itself also.reguarding the lights in the instruments,i was a bit dissapointed in that also.that and the volume is disabled there too.it would be nice to have an overall volume for each kit piece that affected every channel it's routed to w/out having to turn the same drum up or down multiple times to change it.seems like that would make mixing it so much easier.

[DarkStar]

i just checked the instruments folder,each tom is available pre mapped in each of the 6 positions,so you could place any tom in any P# to further customize it.

Sorry, where are you seeing these? The ST kits are big .nkx files here - is it for MT kits only? {I've not downloaded any MT kits yet)

[DarkStar]

My turn

a) The Stereo Grooves samples files include both .RX2 and .wav files. AFAICT the RX2 files are the ones loaded in IP, but are the .wav files used anywhere? Or can I delete them and get back some disk space?

b) Looking at Jerry Marotta Stereo Grooves
JM_Stereo_62.nki uses grooves starting 124
JM_Stereo_140.nki use grooves starting 70
This seems a bit odd.

c) The instrument folder and file names are not in tempo order in IP: e.g. JM_Stereo_62 comes after JM_Stereo_150. Is there any way I can get them in tempo order?

d) I cannot get the Instrument Volume, Pan and meters to work for ST and MT grooves; what am I missing?

e) looking at the Danny Gottleib Stereo Kit:
When I change the mode to GM
-- the keyboard still shows the I-MAP mapping
-- sending the Snare (on D2 (38)) from my keyboard depresses two keys on the IP keyboard: D2 and D3
-- similar for E
-- some IP-mapped keys still work ! e.g C#1 (25) plays a Sidestick, D#1 (27) plays a Rimshot (these are the IMAP mappings)
-- also D#2 (39) played a Snare (but should be a clap)

I must have got something wrong here. But what?

[ynot]

i just checked the instruments folder,each tom is available pre mapped in each of the 6 positions,so you could place any tom in any P# to further customize it.

Sorry, where are you seeing these? The ST kits are big .nkx files here - is it for MT kits only? {I've not downloaded any MT kits yet)

i only have MT kits,so thats what i was refering to.in the instruments folder there are nki files for each kit piece.

[ynot]

My turn

When I change the mode to GM
-- the keyboard still shows the I-MAP mapping
-- sending the Snare (on D2 (38)) from my keyboard depresses two keys on the IP keyboard: D2 and D3
-- similar for E
-- some IP-mapped keys still work ! e.g C#1 (25) plays a Sidestick, D#1 (27) plays a Rimshot (these are the IMAP mappings)
-- also D#2 (39) played a Snare (but should be a clap)

I must have got something wrong here. But what?

i think this is becuase the GM mapping is done via scripting.in other words,theyre not really remapped in the sense that your thinking.it's a script that tells Kontakt something to the effect of when key x is pressed play sample mapped to key y.also the "GM Drum Map" is a pretty loose term,it's commonplace to map a rimshot in place of a clap just as it's common to replace other other hits like vibra slap,bongo etc with something more usefull for a drum kit.

again...hope that helps

[DarkStar]

i just checked the instruments folder,each tom is available pre mapped in each of the 6 positions,so you could place any tom in any P# to further customize it.

Sorry, where are you seeing these? The ST kits are big .nkx files here - is it for MT kits only? {I've not downloaded any MT kits yet)

i only have MT kits,so thats what i was refering to.in the instruments folder there are nki files for each kit piece.

OK, I misunderstood - the ST Kits also have a .nki file for each drum (with different unmbers of toms)

[DarkStar]

i think this is becuase the GM mapping is done via scripting.in other words,theyre not really remapped in the sense that your thinking.it's a script that tells Kontakt something to the effect of when key x is pressed play sample mapped to key y.also the "GM Drum Map" is a pretty loose term,it's commonplace to map a rimshot in place of a clap just as it's common to replace other other hits like vibra slap,bongo etc with something more usefull for a drum kit.

again...hope that helps

Thanks for the insight -that makes thing clearer - but it seems to me that the scripts need some work:
-- to display the right mapping for GM,
-- to prevent the double-depression of keys on the IP keyboard
-- to prevent the osunding of non-GM keys which are IMAPped keys

But maybe this cannot be done in the scripts??

Here's another Q:
Is there any (easy) way to find out which keys are mapped for a kit, other than selecting each instrument one by one

(Just listening to Buddy Rich and Gene Krupa "the Drum Battle" on BBC Radio 3 while I'm typing - Jeez!)

[ynot]

i think this is becuase the GM mapping is done via scripting.in other words,theyre not really remapped in the sense that your thinking.it's a script that tells Kontakt something to the effect of when key x is pressed play sample mapped to key y.also the "GM Drum Map" is a pretty loose term,it's commonplace to map a rimshot in place of a clap just as it's common to replace other other hits like vibra slap,bongo etc with something more usefull for a drum kit.

again...hope that helps

Thanks for the insight -that makes thing clearer - but it seems to me that the scripts need some work:
-- to display the right mapping for GM,
-- to prevent the double-depression of keys on the IP keyboard
-- to prevent the osunding of non-GM keys which are IMAPped keys

But maybe this cannot be done in the scripts??

Here's another Q:
Is there any (easy) way to find out which keys are mapped for a kit, other than selecting each instrument one by one

(Just listening to Buddy Rich and Gene Krupa "the Drum Battle" on BBC Radio 3 while I'm typing - Jeez!)

as far as other notes sounding it shouldnt really be an issue so long as you play/program within the key range of whichever mapping your using.it would be nice to see the whole kit mapping highlighted on the keyboard,but i dont think thats possible w/ kontakt.afaik it will always only show the selected instrument.unless that could be scripted as well,to show which mapping is currently active depending on whether or not the keyswitch has been depressed.that would indeed be helpfull.

[DarkStar]

OK, thank you.

... one more for the moment:

I loaded a ST Groove and switched the Output to St.2. On playback, the groove was still output on St.1:



Big pic:
http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/2715 ... vesout.png

I switched the outputs for some drums in the ST Kits and they went to the desired outputs.
I wonder, are the ST Grooves locked to St.1?

[ynot]

that i dont know,i only have the kits.since its for a groove maybe it defualts to the first output.