Albino vs Gladiator vs Surge vs Zebra

[pdxindy]

Although it doesn't sound analogue (or i couldn't get it sound this way), like Surge or Sylenth1.
This is my original statement. And thanks to Howard for helping me with getting proof.

Proof? There is no proof, just your claims. You have not posted your sylenth version of the same preset as Howard copied. Please post a sylenth version. I would be interested to hear how it sounds analogue.

[jupiter8]

That is a close enough emulation that the difference is academic.

I was thinking the exact same thing. I'm hoping Howard comes back and says his link is actually the mp3 from the Juno site just shortened. Nothing like the ol' placebo effect.

It's clearly missing a touch of oscillator instability

Oscillator instablity ? In a Juno 106 ? You're joking ?

Wouldn't you agree there's a lot of pitch instability in the original sound example (whether or not it's typical of the Juno 106 in general)?

I did'nt listen to the example but the Juno 106 does'nt have unstable oscillators. It can't have the way the oscillators are made. They're clocked from a single clock in the mHz range.

[Locus M]

Zebra can absolutely NAIL any Juno 106 sound but I refuse to prove it

In the hands of a skilled sound desinger like yourself I am sure there are other VAs that can do this as well.

In the example I agree about the difference being academic. Especially if you add the fact that in a piece of music you would have to detach yourself from the music as a whole and concentrate on one sound in a mix to dig any difference, which can be hard enough at CD quality of 16/44,1 but even harder in MP3 quality.

Having said this, I must admit that some demos of softsynth such as the Arturia CS80V

http://www.arturia.com/evolution/en/pro ... html#audio

do have a "plastic edge" about them. Something artificial that can easily be heard in my ears. But this is an "add up" effect, I believe, that appears if you use the same shitty softsynth for everything in a "synth only" tune instead of picking the right one for different jobs (which would not be one synth only for a man of my limited skills). In this respect, The Zebra demos do not sound plastic-like but they do sound very "Zebra-like" in my ears.

http://www.u-he.com/zebra/index.php?item=listen

It is after all not a generic, anonymous and character-neutral all round synth. IMO, it does signature the music in an "add up" tune. Whether you like that sound is a question of personal reference.


All the Best

[Howard]

It is after all not a generic, anonymous and character-neutral all round synth. IMO, it does signature the music in an "add up" tune.

Hmmmm....yes, that rings true. Although I believe it's by far the most character-neutral of the bunch, I suppose some minimum level of "add up effect" is unavoidable. And if most of the chosen patches haven't had much character programmed into them, that added-up character will (unfortunately) be "neutrality"!

[bmanic]

You make a very good point Howard. Hmm.. damn you. Now Zebra demo is being installed yet again. I can imagine Zebra + Nebula/bootsie EQ mk2 being a pretty cool combination. One giving you whatever sound you want and the other providing the "dirt". Should be a pretty flexible combination indeed.

Damn you all.. my credit account will NOT be happy!

Luckily Alchemy's VA section can do almost everything Zebra can.. almost.

Cheers!
bManic

[Urs]

About the "instability of analogue oscillators": You must be kidding me. Time for a shoot-out

For each of the following examples you have 3 possibilities - Analogue, Digital, Zebra. Can you find them? Which example is analogue and which one isn't? (As in: Where are the f**king instabilities? Other than tuning, that is...)

Sawtooths:

Oscillator 1
Oscillator 2
Oscillator 3
Oscillator 4
Oscillator 5
Oscillator 6
Oscillator 7
Oscillator 8
Oscillator 9
Oscillator 10
Oscillator 11
Oscillator 12
Oscillator 13

Pulses:

Oscillator 20
Oscillator 21
Oscillator 22
Oscillator 23
Oscillator 24
Oscillator 25
Oscillator 26
Oscillator 27
Oscillator 28
Oscillator 29
Oscillator 30

To make it a fair competition, each oscillator is run through a lowpass filter (cutoff fully up) and an outboard patch bay, then back into teh computer. But beware! Some digital oscillators are also run through an analogue filter (which honestly makes close to no difference, believe me...)!

Let's see. Anyone takes this on?

I'll post the equopment used later. I will not name competing plugins.

Enjoy,

Urs

[Locus M]

Now Zebra demo is being installed yet again.

Do not be fooled by the skills of the users I'll bet that if Howard was not so god damn biased he could make just about any decent softie sound cool. Sound design does matter IMO. A carefully made soundbank can sometimes feel like getting a whole new synth.

[bmanic]

@Urs: umm.. wasn't it just recently posted that the Juno 106 does NOT contain any instabilities? At least I cannot remember hearing any.

A moog rogue might be a different thing, as far as I remember it was horrible at keeping it's tuning..

Some digital oscillators are also run through an analogue filter (which honestly makes close to no difference, believe me...)!

Are you sure?'Could you post the A/B comparison of digital (a simple render) versus the same oscillator going through the analogue filter (cutoff fully open). Make it a blind test for added fun.

I'll take on the oscillator challenge if I have the strength after work today. I love these kind of subtle things (surely there must be SOME differences in sound, no? )

Cheers!
bManic

[Urs]

surely there must be SOME differences in sound, no?

They are massive. Just not always in the direction that is commonly presumed.

Regarding Juno-106 tuning... what put me off was the notion that Zebra can't be used to emulate any of the Juno examples posted. Because of the grit... Hello?!? Either the quality of the mp3 was so bad, or that synthesizer needs a serious repair. Did anyone expect Howie to emulate bad recording quality as well? I do not think that a Juno 106 has any serious detune between its voices, but such stuff can easily be done with Zebra. I'm very certain that a properly conducted A/B comparison would result in a draw. Especially if we could agree that Zebra's chorus doesn't sound anything like the built-in Roland, so maybe we'd have to use an external plugin.

I'll see what I can do towards the filter thingy.

Urs

[Urs]

I'll see what I can do towards the filter thingy.

Oscillator 14
Oscillator 15

Same synth (not used previously), one time just through the patchbay, another time through an analog filter. There is indeed a considerable loss in treble, but the difference is IMHO smaller than the differences between various oscillators.

Urs

[Arksun]

Now Zebra demo is being installed yet again.

Do not be fooled by the skills of the users I'll bet that if Howard was not so god damn biased he could make just about any decent softie sound cool. Sound design does matter IMO. A carefully made soundbank can sometimes feel like getting a whole new synth.

It can indeed, and I have a lot of respect for Howards brilliant sound design and skills (and indeed love Zebra), but as a sound designer myself, I still feel that Zebra does have its own particular sound and don't really view it as a very neutral synth, for the reasons stated earlier about struggling to do the kinda warm squelchy(call them plasticy if you dont like em?), whatever you want to call them type sounds that some other soft-synths can do.

I'm talking about the under the hood differences here, the algorithms, how fast an envelope reacts and what kind of curvature as it sweeps a filter, whats gone into the type of overdrive. All these help shape the sound as much as the actual choices we're presented in the synth engine itself (ie, number of oscillators, type of waveforms, the modulation routing etc etc)

This is just my humble opinion based on making 128 sounds for the likes of Sylenth1 and now for Zebra (which is nearing completion). As much as I've made presets in Zebra that are virtually impossible to do in Sylenth1 (or anything else for that matter), so it flips the other way that Sylenth1 can create some sounds that, try as I might, is a struggle to do with Zebra. Get close enough in behaviour, absolutely, close enough that a lot of people won't really notice it?, perhaps, but not close enough to my ears.

Again this is NOT about one being 'better' than the other, just 'different', hence why I feel they both have their particular sound. If I was to chose just one of those two synths based purely on its ability to do a wide range of sounds, I'd pick Zebra. But given the choice I'd take both as they both add their own unique flavour to the pot.

I guess our idea of neutral can be based on our own musical tastes as much as the kind of synths we've been exposed to (in addition to what aspects of a sound we'd consider less important/irrelavant). I don't particularly care about trying to replicate a particular era of synths all that much, all I care about is whether the synth (soft or hard) makes a sound I find pleasing, and what aspects of that sound make it pleasing.

I am a fan of a type of music that Howard openly despises , so its not too surprising our opinions differ.

Is that a bad thing?, far from it, it just means more choice for people out there to enjoy a wider range of sounds and flavours, so its all good

I've yet to experience ANY synth that I truly feel is neutral and covers all bases, BUT, perhaps a better question is, would that be a good thing?. I think such a synth would end up being soo incredibly complex with soo many choices it would end up counter intuitive.

In short,my personal feelings on Zebra is that it does cover a vast range of sounds and is a superb synth!... but I still feel it has its own 'zebra' sound.

[zvenx]

as an aside, I am really looking forward to your zebra bank Arksun. It was your sylenth bank that encouraged me to join the Group buy.
rsp

[Epiphany]

It is after all not a generic, anonymous and character-neutral all round synth. IMO, it does signature the music in an "add up" tune. Whether you like that sound is a question of personal reference.


All the Best

Just another KVR random wading in..

I think you have stumbled across a fundamental issue. In the past a producer would draw from a number of different circuits: different synths running through different signal paths, almost like subtle colours conflicting, that conflict being controlled by the producer as part of their sonic signature.

Now as more of us work inside ONE circuit, so we are already losing this self evident physical variance, and the fact that plug in synths also share this basic commonality means that they, and thus our productions, are always fighting an uphill battle against blandness and homogeneity.

[Locus M]

In short,my personal feelings on Zebra is that it does cover a vast range of sounds and is a superb synth!... but I still feel it has its own 'zebra' sound.

Do not know if the post was for me or Howard, but it would make more sense directing it at Howard's thesis of Z2's neutrality because I can not disagree with you at all:

In this respect, The Zebra demos do not sound plastic-like but they do sound very "Zebra-like" in my ears.

However, it is still my view that even the best of tools is worthless in the hands of fools but I would not count neither you nor Howard into that category.

All the Best

[Echoes in the Attic]

Well put Arksun.

I've often wanted to think of Zebra as being the do-it-all-synth and actually tried to convince myself that it can do everything my other synths can. But not much I've heard in any demo tunes or patches for Zebra comes that close to sylenth1, but the opposite is true as well. There have been times where I've had a sound in sylenth1 that I've tried to replicate in Zebra. I usually try for a while and think "no, can't get it right". But then sometimes all of a sudden I think "Wait. I like this one better!" And can't replicate the zebra sound in back Sylenth1. So like you said, sometimes one works better in a certain context.