Mass Producing Mediocrity?

[vurt]

The real problem is the worship of mediocrity, and the Procrustean bed of "mediumness", not mediocrity in and of itself. As illustrated so keenly by George Carlin: everyone who drives slower than you is an "idiot", and everyone who drives faster than you is a "f**king maniac!".

Which is to say, it's all relative. And there are two sides to it -- the musician and the listener. From vurt's point of view, those musicians who were in punk bands were having a great time not giving a shite, but from the listener's side, most punk was shite most of the time. The music, such as it was, was really a vehicle for an attitude, and thus while it was largely mediocre or worse, it functioned well as an anti-establishment rallying cry. And then it died a well-deserved death. Those who were into punk didn't care about how good or not the music was, and everyone else thought it wasn't even music.

punk music?
as i said, many people mistakenly think it was a musical genre.

[eduardo_b]

The real problem is the worship of mediocrity, and the Procrustean bed of "mediumness", not mediocrity in and of itself. As illustrated so keenly by George Carlin: everyone who drives slower than you is an "idiot", and everyone who drives faster than you is a "f**king maniac!".

Which is to say, it's all relative. And there are two sides to it -- the musician and the listener. From vurt's point of view, those musicians who were in punk bands were having a great time not giving a shite, but from the listener's side, most punk was shite most of the time. The music, such as it was, was really a vehicle for an attitude, and thus while it was largely mediocre or worse, it functioned well as an anti-establishment rallying cry. And then it died a well-deserved death. Those who were into punk didn't care about how good or not the music was, and everyone else thought it wasn't even music.

punk music?
as i said, many people mistakenly think it was a musical genre.

It seems like it's referred to as a genre. If not, where does punk fit? Pre-Alt?

[eduardo_b]

Punk was, with some well-known exceptions, always an underground phenom...not mainstream.

You obviously weren't around in the UK in the period 77 to 79 then.

No, I wasn't anywhere near the UK during those years, so I only have the US perspective plus whatever punk bands were coming over from the UK and had enough buzz to be noticed outside the underground.

Well in that case you shouldn't make such sweeping generalizations.

Okay, I'll check with you first for the UK perspective on various topics.

[debra1rlo]

punk music?
as i said, many people mistakenly think it was a musical genre.

It seems like it's referred to as a genre. If not, where does punk fit? Pre-Alt?

Pre-Alt would still be a genre. Punk isn't a genre as much as it is an ethic. I have a punk compilation from that period that features both Wire and The Flying Lizards alongside The Ramones and The Sex Pistols. It's not the sound as much as the ethic that ties these bands together.

[eduardo_b]

punk music?
as i said, many people mistakenly think it was a musical genre.

It seems like it's referred to as a genre. If not, where does punk fit? Pre-Alt?

Pre-Alt would still be a genre. Punk isn't a genre as much as it is an ethic. I have a punk compilation from that period that features both Wire and The Flying Lizards alongside The Ramones and The Sex Pistols. It's not the sound as much as the ethic that ties these bands together.

Yeah, I know that was the point of view of some in that last punk thread, but the music that went with the look, feel and lifestyle seemed unique to punk and I think is commonly viewed that way relative to other genres. So, it seems it could be both.

And is there quality punk-like music and mediocre punkish music? For me, the former is The Sex Pistols. Not exactly underground though, is it.

[debra1rlo]

Yeah, I know that was the point of view of some in that last punk thread, but the music that went with the look, feel and lifestyle seemed unique to punk and I think is commonly viewed that way relative to other genres. So, it seems it could be both.

Seems, but alas, not entirely so. Punk music is as varied as just about any other genre (tarnce excluded. ) Are you familiar with Wire? My guess is no.

And is there quality punk-like music and mediocre punkish music? For me, the former is The Sex Pistols. Not exactly underground though, is it.

Let's not get into quality issues as those are extremely subjective based on the listener. For instance, I dig punk like the Cramps and a friend suggested I might also like Crass. yeah, umm, not so much, thought they sucked major amounts of ass. The sound of the bands isn't terribly different, but there's a world of difference to my ears. But some people think they're the quality ones and the Cramps suck.

I know they're wrong but what evidence can I present that isn't completely subjective?

[robogone]

Punk was, with some well-known exceptions, always an underground phenom...not mainstream.

You obviously weren't around in the UK in the period 77 to 79 then.

No, I wasn't anywhere near the UK during those years, so I only have the US perspective plus whatever punk bands were coming over from the UK and had enough buzz to be noticed outside the underground.

Well in that case you shouldn't make such sweeping generalizations.

Okay, I'll check with you first for the UK perspective on various topics.

You might want to just check with ANY sources before you make statements about something.

[eduardo_b]

Punk was, with some well-known exceptions, always an underground phenom...not mainstream.

You obviously weren't around in the UK in the period 77 to 79 then.

No, I wasn't anywhere near the UK during those years, so I only have the US perspective plus whatever punk bands were coming over from the UK and had enough buzz to be noticed outside the underground.

Well in that case you shouldn't make such sweeping generalizations.

Okay, I'll check with you first for the UK perspective on various topics.

You might want to just check with ANY sources before you make statements about something.

But you're not just any source.

[eduardo_b]

For instance, I dig punk like the Cramps and a friend suggested I might also like Crass. yeah, umm, not so much, thought they sucked major amounts of ass. The sound of the bands isn't terribly different, but there's a world of difference to my ears. But some people think they're the quality ones and the Cramps suck.

When was the last time I heard that phrase?

I can overlook unsigned I-want-to-be-in-a-band stuff because my expectations are suitably low, but I am far more dismayed when they have a contract and I have to wonder why. Sure, it's subjective. At least these bands are not just the figment of someone with a DAW. There's an engineer and maybe even a producer in the room, so there's plenty of blame or credit to go around.

It just occurred to me that punk, the music or the attitude, is now...what...a quarter-century old?

[vespers75]

It just occurred to me that punk, the music or the attitude, is now...what...a quarter-century old?

More like a third or so, actually.

[vespers75]

Well, let me ask you this. In terms of mediocrity vs quality, where would you place punk...the real stuff, not posers.

Depends...I cannot blanket an entire diverse music movement into one 'spot' on a scale of quality. What aspect of quality anyhow? The production, the song writing, the creative intent, or something else? There were some songs and bands I felt were of 'low' quality in certain ways, and some I thought were of 'high' quality. Of course, this is influenced by my own tastes and/or preferences, and would likely come off as strange even among those who like punk.

[debra1rlo]

Well, let me ask you this. In terms of mediocrity vs quality, where would you place punk...the real stuff, not posers.

Depends...I cannot blanket an entire diverse music movement into one 'spot' on a scale of quality. What aspect of quality anyhow? The production, the song writing, the creative intent, or something else? There were some songs and bands I felt were of 'low' quality in certain ways, and some I thought were of 'high' quality. Of course, this is influenced by my own tastes and/or preferences, and would likely come off as strange even among those who like punk.

+1 You're never going to get 100% agreement between people when trying to measure quality. Measuring quality is kind of like trying to count all the grains of sand at the beach, impossible.

[eduardo_b]

Well, let me ask you this. In terms of mediocrity vs quality, where would you place punk...the real stuff, not posers.

Depends...I cannot blanket an entire diverse music movement into one 'spot' on a scale of quality. What aspect of quality anyhow? The production, the song writing, the creative intent, or something else? There were some songs and bands I felt were of 'low' quality in certain ways, and some I thought were of 'high' quality. Of course, this is influenced by my own tastes and/or preferences, and would likely come off as strange even among those who like punk.

Sort of ironic in a way, because the punk ethos was, or seemed to be, anti-quality (anti-consumerism). Even musicianship wasn't necessary -- an anti-authoritarian approach to music if there ever was one. Being "mediocre" might even have been a compliment? Probably why I liked so little of it.

[vespers75]

Well, let me ask you this. In terms of mediocrity vs quality, where would you place punk...the real stuff, not posers.

Depends...I cannot blanket an entire diverse music movement into one 'spot' on a scale of quality. What aspect of quality anyhow? The production, the song writing, the creative intent, or something else? There were some songs and bands I felt were of 'low' quality in certain ways, and some I thought were of 'high' quality. Of course, this is influenced by my own tastes and/or preferences, and would likely come off as strange even among those who like punk.

Sort of ironic in a way, because the punk ethos was, or seemed to be, anti-quality (anti-consumerism). Even musicianship wasn't necessary -- an anti-authoritarian approach to music if there ever was one. Being "mediocre" might even have been a compliment? Probably why I liked so little of it.

The DIY ethic was emphasized, as were many aspects of rebelllion. But like anything else, there was more to it than a mere few sentences could sum up and do justice to. I don't equate 'anti-quality' with 'anti-consumerism' though. There are many types of music that have an anti-authoritarian approach...Metal, Industrial, Noise, and so forth. Some even do so without a single lyric. Simply doing what it is that you want to do musically without any regard to what anyone else says or thinks...that is anti-authoritarian itself. Not giving two f**ks if some label rep likes it, or some girl down the street likes it, or some writer on a music forum likes it.

[eduardo_b]

Well, let me ask you this. In terms of mediocrity vs quality, where would you place punk...the real stuff, not posers.

Depends...I cannot blanket an entire diverse music movement into one 'spot' on a scale of quality. What aspect of quality anyhow? The production, the song writing, the creative intent, or something else? There were some songs and bands I felt were of 'low' quality in certain ways, and some I thought were of 'high' quality. Of course, this is influenced by my own tastes and/or preferences, and would likely come off as strange even among those who like punk.

Sort of ironic in a way, because the punk ethos was, or seemed to be, anti-quality (anti-consumerism). Even musicianship wasn't necessary -- an anti-authoritarian approach to music if there ever was one. Being "mediocre" might even have been a compliment? Probably why I liked so little of it.

The DIY ethic was emphasized, as were many aspects of rebelllion. But like anything else, there was more to it than a mere few sentences could sum up and do justice to. I don't equate 'anti-quality' with 'anti-consumerism' though. There are many types of music that have an anti-authoritarian approach...Metal, Industrial, Noise, and so forth. Some even do so without a single lyric. Simply doing what it is that you want to do musically without any regard to what anyone else says or thinks...that is anti-authoritarian itself. Not giving two f**ks if some label rep likes it, or some girl down the street likes it, or some writer on a music forum likes it.

Holy crap, there are punks all over KVR.