Audio input causes feedback
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- KVRer
- 9 posts since 4 Jul, 2008 from North Hollywood, CA
If I check both of the boxes, Input and Output, in the Master Levels part of the Home tab, I get uncontrollable feedback. This happens even if using the default, no plugins configuration. Is that the way it is supposed to work? That creates a limit on the ability to use Cantabile as a sudo effects pedal for any audio input. I can check the Input and get the audio signal, but I have to record it to a media file, select Output in the Master Levels, and then point it to a rack to put the effects into any audio signal I may want to modify. I was hoping that the Input Connect feature would allow on the fly effects processing of audio signals. Direct into a rack, through the effects and out to the sound system.
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- KVRian
- 791 posts since 8 Mar, 2006 from Australia
There's two main reasons you could be getting this problem.
1) A real audio feedback loop where your mike is picking up your speakers. You need to move mikes away from speakers, adjust input/output gain levels to eliminate it.
2) Sound card monitoring - where the sound card deliberately reflects back the output to input.
On some systems I've seen this monitoring problem go away by simply opening the Window's recording mixer (use the button on Cantabile's Setup tab) - I don't know why this fixes it but it often does and when it does, it never comes back. (does anyone know why?).
Failing that check the control panel settings, asio driver settings or any other configuration/utility applications that came with your sound card for an option that disables monitoring.
Another approach is to check the input/output channels you're using. Some sound cards have two sets of input channels - one that monitors the output, one that doesn't. Similarly you could have outputs that are monitored and outputs that are not.
Unfortunately every sound card is a little bit different so I can't give exact steps, but if it's not because of 1), it will almost certainly be because of 2).
This is not a problem with Cantabile itself... (unless there's some bug I don't know about)
I hope this helps.
Brad
1) A real audio feedback loop where your mike is picking up your speakers. You need to move mikes away from speakers, adjust input/output gain levels to eliminate it.
2) Sound card monitoring - where the sound card deliberately reflects back the output to input.
On some systems I've seen this monitoring problem go away by simply opening the Window's recording mixer (use the button on Cantabile's Setup tab) - I don't know why this fixes it but it often does and when it does, it never comes back. (does anyone know why?).
Failing that check the control panel settings, asio driver settings or any other configuration/utility applications that came with your sound card for an option that disables monitoring.
Another approach is to check the input/output channels you're using. Some sound cards have two sets of input channels - one that monitors the output, one that doesn't. Similarly you could have outputs that are monitored and outputs that are not.
Unfortunately every sound card is a little bit different so I can't give exact steps, but if it's not because of 1), it will almost certainly be because of 2).
This is not a problem with Cantabile itself... (unless there's some bug I don't know about)
I hope this helps.
Brad
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 9 posts since 4 Jul, 2008 from North Hollywood, CA
I have a Creative Labs X-Fi (EC00) with the drive bay front connector panel. I have the Input/Mic jack, which is physically on the back of the computer, set to Digital I/O so that I can output to my stereo/surround system when I want, but not usually when trying to record. I use the front panel Line-In 2/Mic 2 for audio input. If there is nothing plugged into the Line-In 2/Mic 2 plug, there is no feedback. But if I plug anything into the jack, the feedback starts if there is the slightest sound, and it will not go away until I unplug the device and also un-check both the input and output in the Master Levels. With the device removed I can check both of the boxes again and there is no feedback, again.
It's almost as if the input is too sensitive when using audio devices through Cantabile. I can use other applications, such as GuitarFX3, and I don't get any unexpected feedback. Just what is set through the program. But through Cantabile, if I plug in a microphone, everything is fine until I make a noise through it. No matter how low I set all of the levels, I get feedback. I can record through Audacity and a lot of different wave recorders with no feedback.
One thing that I have noticed is that every time I open Cantabile the outputs in the mixer for the Line-In, Line-In 2/Mic 2, Auxiliary and Auxiliary 2 are all muted. I have to un-check the mute box for the audio inputs to work again. I have tried leaving all the other outputs muted except the one I am going to use, but it does not change anything. It's almost as if Cantabile sees the feedback and tries to block it. No other program I use mutes these outputs.
Is there a more specific place I should look for the monitoring settings and/or bus settings? I have been through the settings a hundred times and have not found them. I have been fixing computers for a living for more than 20 years, but am a complete newbie when it comes to computer music recording. Have done everything through analog until recently.
It's almost as if the input is too sensitive when using audio devices through Cantabile. I can use other applications, such as GuitarFX3, and I don't get any unexpected feedback. Just what is set through the program. But through Cantabile, if I plug in a microphone, everything is fine until I make a noise through it. No matter how low I set all of the levels, I get feedback. I can record through Audacity and a lot of different wave recorders with no feedback.
One thing that I have noticed is that every time I open Cantabile the outputs in the mixer for the Line-In, Line-In 2/Mic 2, Auxiliary and Auxiliary 2 are all muted. I have to un-check the mute box for the audio inputs to work again. I have tried leaving all the other outputs muted except the one I am going to use, but it does not change anything. It's almost as if Cantabile sees the feedback and tries to block it. No other program I use mutes these outputs.
Is there a more specific place I should look for the monitoring settings and/or bus settings? I have been through the settings a hundred times and have not found them. I have been fixing computers for a living for more than 20 years, but am a complete newbie when it comes to computer music recording. Have done everything through analog until recently.
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- KVRian
- 791 posts since 8 Mar, 2006 from Australia
The fact that it doesn't stop until you turn off the master input/output checkboxes indicates some sort of sound card monitoring. Aside from a possibly obscure bug, I can't think how Cantabile could be reflecting output audio back onto itself.larrythethird wrote:I have a Creative Labs X-Fi (EC00) with the drive bay front connector panel. I have the Input/Mic jack, which is physically on the back of the computer, set to Digital I/O so that I can output to my stereo/surround system when I want, but not usually when trying to record. I use the front panel Line-In 2/Mic 2 for audio input. If there is nothing plugged into the Line-In 2/Mic 2 plug, there is no feedback. But if I plug anything into the jack, the feedback starts if there is the slightest sound, and it will not go away until I unplug the device and also un-check both the input and output in the Master Levels. With the device removed I can check both of the boxes again and there is no feedback, again.
Are these other recording apps using ASIO drivers and are they passing input to output (as in effect processing) or just recording?It's almost as if the input is too sensitive when using audio devices through Cantabile. I can use other applications, such as GuitarFX3, and I don't get any unexpected feedback. Just what is set through the program. But through Cantabile, if I plug in a microphone, everything is fine until I make a noise through it. No matter how low I set all of the levels, I get feedback. I can record through Audacity and a lot of different wave recorders with no feedback.
I just want to confirm - this problem doesn't happen until a rack's input-connect is enabled right? Does it happen if you delete every rack?
I can't explain that! Cantabile certainly doesn't do anything to try and block inputs/outputs etc... all it does is uses the ASIO api to enable the inputs you have selected in the master bus channel assignments.One thing that I have noticed is that every time I open Cantabile the outputs in the mixer for the Line-In, Line-In 2/Mic 2, Auxiliary and Auxiliary 2 are all muted. I have to un-check the mute box for the audio inputs to work again. I have tried leaving all the other outputs muted except the one I am going to use, but it does not change anything. It's almost as if Cantabile sees the feedback and tries to block it. No other program I use mutes these outputs.
I'm really not that familiar with that card. Perhaps someone else can help?Is there a more specific place I should look for the monitoring settings and/or bus settings? I have been through the settings a hundred times and have not found them. I have been fixing computers for a living for more than 20 years, but am a complete newbie when it comes to computer music recording. Have done everything through analog until recently.
Also, although I don't want to pass the buck, it might be worth contacting Creative - see if they can explain the channels getting muted in the mixer, or perhaps they can repro the problem and provide some insight.
It might also be worth me taking a look at a log file. See http://www.cantabilesoftware.com/support/debug.html for info on how to do this. Leave logging at level 2 and email me the log and I'll check it out.
Finally, does this happen with just creative's asio drivers? Does it happen with DirectSound and/or a generic asio driver like asio4all?
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 9 posts since 4 Jul, 2008 from North Hollywood, CA
I have been digging a little deeper. It looks like it's the Creative ASIO driver. If I change it to the Direct X drivers the feedback goes away. Unfortunately, I get a good second delay when I do that. The driver I was using was from YouP-Pax. They take the Creative drivers and usually make them much better sounding. I am downloading all of the drivers from Creative Labs again and plan on reloading all of the drivers. If I still see the problem I think I will try the ALL4ONE ASIO drivers.
But to answer a few of your questions, I get the feedback with nothing loaded in any of the racks. I haven't tried with no racks. But I have no plugins loaded and it still feeds back.
I have been through the Creative forums and have not seen anything close to this. I think a lot of Americans have shied away from using Creative products for music creation.
But to answer a few of your questions, I get the feedback with nothing loaded in any of the racks. I haven't tried with no racks. But I have no plugins loaded and it still feeds back.
I have been through the Creative forums and have not seen anything close to this. I think a lot of Americans have shied away from using Creative products for music creation.
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- KVRian
- 791 posts since 8 Mar, 2006 from Australia
Glad to hear you're making some progress. There's no good reason to use the directsound drivers - they really are pretty crap and now that ASIO4ALL is available for x64 I might just remove directsound support. I totally recommend ASIO4ALL - I found it to be better than the asio drivers that came with my M-Audio card.larrythethird wrote:I have been digging a little deeper. It looks like it's the Creative ASIO driver. If I change it to the Direct X drivers the feedback goes away. Unfortunately, I get a good second delay when I do that. The driver I was using was from YouP-Pax. They take the Creative drivers and usually make them much better sounding. I am downloading all of the drivers from Creative Labs again and plan on reloading all of the drivers. If I still see the problem I think I will try the ALL4ONE ASIO drivers.
OK, but only when the input connect option is selected right?But to answer a few of your questions, I get the feedback with nothing loaded in any of the racks. I haven't tried with no racks. But I have no plugins loaded and it still feeds back.
Not sure.I have been through the Creative forums and have not seen anything close to this. I think a lot of Americans have shied away from using Creative products for music creation.
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 9 posts since 4 Jul, 2008 from North Hollywood, CA
I finally loaded the ASIO4ONE drivers and the problem is solved. There is some loop created within the ASIO driver provided by Creative Labs that renders it useless for use with Cantabile.
Even with no racks, any sound at all through the input causes the loop. And after it starts, the device has to be removed from the computer and the input or output disabled through Cantabile before it will go away.
Thanks for such quick responses.
Even with no racks, any sound at all through the input causes the loop. And after it starts, the device has to be removed from the computer and the input or output disabled through Cantabile before it will go away.
Thanks for such quick responses.
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- KVRian
- 791 posts since 8 Mar, 2006 from Australia
I'm totally stumped by that statement. I can't think how that could happen except by a bug in Cantabile. Over the next day or so, I'll carefully review the code around that see if I can see something wrong.larrythethird wrote:Even with no racks, any sound at all through the input causes the loop.
No problem, glad you have a solution for the moment anyway.Thanks for such quick responses.
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 9 posts since 4 Jul, 2008 from North Hollywood, CA
That's why I started looking at Cantabile first. I would think that with no racks setup there would be no issues. But I have noticed that Cantabile sees the audio input at all times. Whatever the default input device is set to through the Windows recording mixer is always active, as far as the input in the Master Levels is concerned. It's almost as if it were hard wired to the input device.
Looking through other applications, notably Audacity, it appears as though all Windows audio applications suffer from the same type of hard wiring. Although Audacity has a selection option for the audio input, all it is really doing is changing the Windows default without going through the Windows mixer. It's instead done through Audacity, but it is changed for all other applications as well. It would be nice if Windows didn't force that upon the applications and let the individual application monitor whatever input it wants. All the other inputs are basically muted and only the selected input is active.
Looking through other applications, notably Audacity, it appears as though all Windows audio applications suffer from the same type of hard wiring. Although Audacity has a selection option for the audio input, all it is really doing is changing the Windows default without going through the Windows mixer. It's instead done through Audacity, but it is changed for all other applications as well. It would be nice if Windows didn't force that upon the applications and let the individual application monitor whatever input it wants. All the other inputs are basically muted and only the selected input is active.