Topten Software

Gianluca13_2 · Post by **Gianluca13_2** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:47 am

Hi Brad,

I'm not able to find a solution to this problem:

How can I implement an Fx send arrangement?

Or in others words if I have more than one rack with inside synthesizers and equalizers and I need to send all this racks to just one reverb unit, is there a way to create a new rack with this reverb unit and send signals from every rack in send fashion to this last rack?

Cheers,

Gianluca

Italy.

bradr · Post by **bradr** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:49 am

Hi Gianluca,

Unless I've misunderstood your question, each rack has an output selector that lets you route its output to either the sound card, or another rack. So all you need to do is create a rack with the final reverb plugin and set the output of every other rack to that rack.

eg:

Rack 1 -> Instrument -> EQ -> Rack 3
Rack 2 -> Instrument -> EQ -> Rack 3
Rack 3 -> Reverb -> Output

Does this help?

Brad

Gianluca13_2 · Post by **Gianluca13_2** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:46 am

This is clear and I considered this solution but in this way I cant separate the wet and dry for every rack. If rack 3 contain a reverb I have the same quantity of dry and reverb for rack 1 and 2. Suppose I need a little amount of reverb for rack 1 and a large amount of reverb for rack 2 how can I do this? I suppose it is necessary something in every rack to set proper send channel amount and one or more send channel common to every rack.

bradr · Post by **bradr** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:54 am

You're right, this can't be easily done atm and would require a reverb in each slot - which is less than ideal. Let me think about this a little see if I can come up with something better.

bradr · Post by **bradr** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:48 pm

I've had a look through the rack routing and mixing code... turns out just about everything is inplace for this - perhaps.

A couple of questions:

* Anyone else think they would find this useful?
* Is "Partial Send" the correct terminology for this?
* What would be the correct term to use in labeling the slider - "Send Amount"?
* I believe the correct behaviour here is if the send amount is 25%, 25% of the signal gets sent, 75% gets passed to output (not 100%).
* Should the send be done before or after the rack's gain is applied? ie: if you increase the gain of the rack should it increase both the sent and unsent signals, or just the unsent signal?
* How useful would it be to be able to send the non-sent signal to another different rack? Is it good enough that the unsent signal always goes directly to the sound card?

The big catch is that I'm supposed to be code complete. I think this might be useful enough though to warrant some experiments over the weekend to assess whether it's worth adding right now.

Gianluca13_2 · Post by **Gianluca13_2** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:47 pm

Hi Brad,

Sorry to create new problems and disarrange your planning. But I noticed this lack just some days ago. This function is very similar to the send bus of an hardware mixing console where some knobs in every strip are destined to effects sending. They are summed in effect output channel going to external hardware effect unit and this return in the main mix via an effect return bus. Usually in every strip there is a button for selecting if effect is take before or after the feeder. Also in software audio application is quite popular this function. You can see many examples of this, Ableton Live have a very articulated effects send ability, Cubase, Sonar, Energy XT and may others. It is important because involves a great saving of CPU resources. You can use just one effect plug-in for many channels and this is typical of reverbs and delay units.

Gianluca13_2 · Post by **Gianluca13_2** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:06 pm

You can call this knob simply "send" or "send amount" in other similar application is called "send" where in hardware consoles is called "efx send". If you prefer avoid the selection button "pre/post feeder" you can take signal before the level rack knob so it is always possible have a send signal greater tan direct signal.

bradr · Post by **bradr** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:14 am

OK, this is what I'm thinking (no promises). Rather than dedicated effect racks, using a similar model to Cantabile's existing rack routing.

1. In the Send To drop down on each rack, adding two sub-menus "Partial Send 1" and "Partial Send 2" which allow selecting a target rack for up to 2 partial sends.
2. Each partial send could have an option to control whether the rack's gain is applied or not ie: pre/post feed.
3. Just to the right of that drop down two knobs (or they might have to be sliders to start with) to control the send amount of each.

So the send to menu would look something like this:

Code: Select all

Output Selector
  Partial Send 1
      Rack 1
      Rack 2
      ----
      Pre Gain (y/n)
  Partial Send 2
      Rack 1
      Rack 2
      ----
      Pre Gain (y/n)
  ----
  Output
  ----
  Rack 1
  Rack 2
  ----
  <midi outputs>

The target of the send could then be routed either to output or to another rack.

I think that covers everything. You could even create more than two sends by doing a 100% send to a rack and then using it's partial sends to split it again.

I'm still not sure about the send amounts though. Are these like wet/dry controls where at 0 everything goes to normal output and at 100% everything goes to the send and nothing to output? Or should they just lift a percentage of the signal and leave the original unaltered. I think the first so adjusting the send amount doesn't affect the overall gain - just the amount of effect applied. Right?

Make sense? What do you think?

Brad

bradr · Post by **bradr** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 2:49 pm

How does this look?

You'll need to scroll the screen shot to the right to see the important bits. Note the knobs after the send selector, and the multiple destinations in the first two racks.

Also here's the drop down for selecting target(s):

Doesn't work atm.

I'm still not promising anything until I've proven to myself that the audio engine side of it can be done without too much effort (and that it works reliably). I think the hard part (the UI) is done, but I'd like some confirmation that I'm the right track.

All comments welcome.

Brad

bradr · Post by **bradr** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:37 pm

Got it working now...

Currently, each partial send peels off a percentage of the signal (either before or after gain) and leaves the direct signal unaltered. Both send amounts can be MIDI controlled.

I've spent about an hour or so testing and it seems to work well. If testing continues to goes well tomorrow, this will probably be in the next build (2018) of Performer.

TiUser · Post by **TiUser** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 3:57 pm

Hi Brad.

I was silently monitoring this topic for a while... this solution offer looks fine to me.

However it reminds me on having a mixer like view on the racks anytime... but don't misunderstand, I am not about to tell you that you should include that soon... this extention just point in this direction

I also ask myself when people start to demand monitor lines as well... just like a mixer does...

People seem to like familiar approved concepts.

I also remeber the many sum busses (at least performer provides that) and how to use these practically (beyond fancy surround setups)... but maybe you don't like to add a dedicated effects rack that is fed by special lines form the sum bus?... just an idea so far.

Gianluca13_2 · Post by **Gianluca13_2** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:02 am

Hi Brad,

Sorry for my delay but I was not at home this weekend and I seen your replay this morning.
Seems your solution is very fine.
I think two send bus hare sufficient for the most part of applications.

About your question:

I'm still not sure about the send amounts though. Are these like wet/dry controls where at 0 everything goes to normal output and at 100% everything goes to the send and nothing to output? Or should they just lift a percentage of the signal and leave the original unaltered. I think the first so adjusting the send amount doesn't affect the overall gain - just the amount of effect applied.

I'm not sure I have understood the doubt beyond this question. From my point of view a send bus take a part of the strip signal leaving unchanged the level of the strip. The signal coming out from the strip is always the same. And the amount of the signal sent to the effect strip is just conditioned by the send knob. So you can set an amount of the effect for this strip leaving unchanged the original strip level. Is this the point?

bradr · Post by **bradr** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:37 am

Gianluca13_2 wrote:Sorry for my delay but I was not at home this weekend and I seen your replay this morning.

No problem at all.

Seems your solution is very fine.
I think two send bus hare sufficient for the most part of applications.

Great.

About your question:... Is this the point?

Yep that's exactly what I was asking and I've implemented exactly your answer!

This will be in Performer, build 2018.

Brad

Gianluca13_2 · Post by **Gianluca13_2** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:50 am

Great.

Another step forward.

Cheers,

Gianluca

TiUser · Post by **TiUser** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:55 am

Agreed...

Think it's really time now to "close" the first milestone, concntrate on bugfixing and kick of the final release... otherwise V2 will never be finished...