Composing Forum

[Rottweiler]

could we have a forum , about zombies ?...
it could be the de-composing forum ...

a decompressing forum woulndt hurt either.

[Lunatique]

Pretty simple...for me theory is different than practice...but complimentary at the same time ....and "Composition" IS practice

Unfortunately, if you take composition out of music theory (where it technically belongs), then where does arrangement go? It's better off to just have music theory encompass composition and arrangement (which it technically does, and always did), and simply add "Workflow" which encompasses the non-theory aspects of writing music. In the past, we dumped anything that didn't fit in other forums into Everything Else (Music-Related), and that's where those songwriting/workflow/inspiration topics always ended up in the past.

[ozmoz2008]

Pretty simple...for me theory is different than practice...but complimentary at the same time ....and "Composition" IS practice

Unfortunately, if you take composition out of music theory (where it technically belongs), then where does arrangement go? It's better off to just have music theory encompass composition and arrangement (which it technically does, and always did), and simply add "Workflow" which encompasses the non-theory aspects of writing music. In the past, we dumped anything that didn't fit in other forums into Everything Else (Music-Related), and that's where those songwriting/workflow/inspiration topics always ended up in the past.

Yeah but still I think that theory is one thins and practice another...even as a subject it doesn't gives all the same information...and yes workflow, songwriting and inspiration are part of it...

But maybe only the title Music Theory should change to Composition implying all the subcategories that we are talking about...that makes more sense to me anyway

As for decomposition....there is already forums for that ...in KVR

[Lunatique]

But maybe only the title Music Theory should change to Composition implying all the subcategories that we are talking about...that makes more sense to me anyway

It may make more sense to you, but it goes against the hundreds of years of tradition that has shaped what we understand about music, and also what is universally understood by musicians. Anything not covered by music theory yet still involves songwriting, composition...etc are matters involving production techniques (we already have that forum), sound design (we also have that as well), workflow, and inspiration--both of which are now covered by Everything Else (Music-related) forum.

So to me, it makes sense to simply add a new forum called Workflow/Inspiration--as that will take care of anything we already cover in the Everything Else (Music-related) forum but prefer to have a dedicated space for. Music Theory can go on to cover composition and arrangement and other theory related topics. I think that's probably the most simple and elegant solution--IF we really do feel we need to have a dedicated space for discussing creative issues not involving anything that's related to theory (composition/arrangement).

[ZooTooK]

- Techniques for developing melodic ideas
- Song structure (binary, ternary, ABACA, etc)
- Remix techniques
- Arranging for orch, bands, guitar, piano, organ, chorus, etc.
- Characteristics and common elements of various musical styles (electronic, swing, R&B, gospel, baroque, etc.)
- What to do when you're "stuck" musically
- Tips for getting inspired for music creation under a deadline
- Merits of various composing styles and philosophies
- Analysis
- Film and media composing
- Groove building and rhythm track foundations
- What composer's musical footsteps do you like to follow?
- etc.

Oh yes, I certainly would like to see these topics covered in KvR, creating a new forum or just widening the scope of this... also these thing are very rarely covered in the music press...

[kelvyn]

When I first came here I came with the intention of seeking more information on composition and song writing and film music.

I mainly explore only the subtopics of theory and music caffe. Usually few times enter the others.

So, yes, I'd say, I'd love to have a place more specific to discuss and learn composition techniques and applied theory.

Moreover, a place to have feedback on our own compositions.

Furthermore, a place to make virtual colaborations. I manytimes write music and have noone to sing it or play it.

Hey! Thats really nice stuff you compose.. I would be happy to help you out with vocals. Peace K

[ozmoz2008]

But maybe only the title Music Theory should change to Composition implying all the subcategories that we are talking about...that makes more sense to me anyway

It may make more sense to you, but it goes against the hundreds of years of tradition that has shaped what we understand about music, and also what is universally understood by musicians. Anything not covered by music theory yet still involves songwriting, composition...etc are matters involving production techniques (we already have that forum), sound design (we also have that as well), workflow, and inspiration--both of which are now covered by Everything Else (Music-related) forum.

So to me, it makes sense to simply add a new forum called Workflow/Inspiration--as that will take care of anything we already cover in the Everything Else (Music-related) forum but prefer to have a dedicated space for. Music Theory can go on to cover composition and arrangement and other theory related topics. I think that's probably the most simple and elegant solution--IF we really do feel we need to have a dedicated space for discussing creative issues not involving anything that's related to theory (composition/arrangement).

I'm not going "against" years of music "history"...sorry!

I'm just talking about two things...one is "theory" and the other is "practice" which is what it implies...and is NOT "theory".

Hope that's clear enough.

Read the 2 other post they have some suggestions for "practice" discussions aspect of compostion.

[Ogg Vorbis]

Maybe it's time to "road test" some of the ideas we have about categorization. Let's post a composition topic in the theory forum and see:

1) If it gets deleted because it's "out of scope"
2) See if it gets traffic
3) See if if gets replies (to determine if there's demand for these types of items)

I'll post something about inspiration, okay?

[Lunatique]

Maybe it's time to "road test" some of the ideas we have about categorization. Let's post a composition topic in the theory forum and see:

1) If it gets deleted because it's "out of scope"
2) See if it gets traffic
3) See if if gets replies (to determine if there's demand for these types of items)

I'll post something about inspiration, okay?

But inspiration doesn't belong in theory anyway in the first place, unless it's some kind of compositional approach involving ideas like equal intervals or other structures. If it's strictly inspiration as in what makes you tick (beyond theory), then it should be posted in the Everything Else (Music-related)--unless we open up a new forum for Inspiration/Workflow.

What ozmoz2008 kept referring to as "practice" translates directly into workflow to me--the way one physically and mentally approaches the creation of a piece of music when not thinking in terms of composition and arrangement. For example, sometimes I think about a narrative, and I'll jot down some lyrical ideas that would convey that narrative, and then I'll write down how I think the song would sound--the timbres, the rhythm, the structure--as if I'm describing a piece of music I'd already heard in my head. Kind of like how a screenwriter would first write a treatment, and then flesh out the treatment into a screenplay. I would do a treatment via prose for the musical idea before I play a single note of actual music. I think this kind of workflow is exactly what ozmoz2008 meant by "practice" versus something very concrete and established like music theory.

[Ogg Vorbis]

Maybe it's time to "road test" some of the ideas we have about categorization. Let's post a composition topic in the theory forum and see:

1) If it gets deleted because it's "out of scope"
2) See if it gets traffic
3) See if if gets replies (to determine if there's demand for these types of items)

I'll post something about inspiration, okay?

But inspiration doesn't belong in theory anyway in the first place, unless it's some kind of compositional approach involving ideas like equal intervals or other structures. If it's strictly inspiration as in what makes you tick (beyond theory), then it should be posted in the Everything Else (Music-related)--unless we open up a new forum for Inspiration/Workflow.

What ozmoz2008 kept referring to as "practice" translates directly into workflow to me--the way one physically and mentally approaches the creation of a piece of music when not thinking in terms of composition and arrangement. For example, sometimes I think about a narrative, and I'll jot down some lyrical ideas that would convey that narrative, and then I'll write down how I think the song would sound--the timbres, the rhythm, the structure--as if I'm describing a piece of music I'd already heard in my head. Kind of like how a screenwriter would first write a treatment, and then flesh out the treatment into a screenplay. I would do a treatment via prose for the musical idea before I play a single note of actual music. I think this kind of workflow is exactly what ozmoz2008 meant by "practice" versus something very concrete and established like music theory.

Sort of the point of the experiment. We can discuss personal perspectives and opinions all day.

[ozmoz2008]

Maybe it's time to "road test" some of the ideas we have about categorization. Let's post a composition topic in the theory forum and see:

1) If it gets deleted because it's "out of scope"
2) See if it gets traffic
3) See if if gets replies (to determine if there's demand for these types of items)

I'll post something about inspiration, okay?

But inspiration doesn't belong in theory anyway in the first place, unless it's some kind of compositional approach involving ideas like equal intervals or other structures. If it's strictly inspiration as in what makes you tick (beyond theory), then it should be posted in the Everything Else (Music-related)--unless we open up a new forum for Inspiration/Workflow.

What ozmoz2008 kept referring to as "practice" translates directly into workflow to me--the way one physically and mentally approaches the creation of a piece of music when not thinking in terms of composition and arrangement. For example, sometimes I think about a narrative, and I'll jot down some lyrical ideas that would convey that narrative, and then I'll write down how I think the song would sound--the timbres, the rhythm, the structure--as if I'm describing a piece of music I'd already heard in my head. Kind of like how a screenwriter would first write a treatment, and then flesh out the treatment into a screenplay. I would do a treatment via prose for the musical idea before I play a single note of actual music. I think this kind of workflow is exactly what ozmoz2008 meant by "practice" versus something very concrete and established like music theory.

You're right, but also how do you use these "theory rules", how do you bend them to fit your own musical vision, creation...in fact composition for me is how you interprete rules so that you make a creation out of it etc. Also it could include stuff like, what is your opinion of your own and others compositions ...

That's what I also meant with the fact that practice is different than theory "only"

Obviously theory could be part of composition but not the inverse in a logical sense.

Composition is a wider concept than what theory implies.

As for interest here are some exemples of posts that should have been put under composition forum in the past:

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=

Some music business tips could also be part of the Composition forum.

As you can see some of these exemples where generating some significant traffic and thread replies.

[gnu23]

could we have a forum , about zombies ?...
it could be the de-composing forum ...

Braaaaaaiiinsssss...!

(and yeah, I should have resisted that impulse...)

[Lunatique]

/quote]

You're right, but also how do you use these "theory rules", how do you bend them to fit your own musical vision, creation...in fact composition for me is how you interprete rules so that you make a creation out of it etc. Also it could include stuff like, what is your opinion of your own and others compositions ...

That's what I also meant with the fact that practice is different than theory "only"

Obviously theory could be part of composition but not the inverse in a logical sense.

Composition is a wider concept than what theory implies.

As for interest here are some exemples of posts that should have been put under composition forum in the past:

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=

Some music business tips could also be part of the Composition forum.

As you can see some of these exemples where generating some significant traffic and thread replies.

I have to say I don't agree at all. I think maybe you are trying to broaden what the word composition means based on your own preferences, but your preferences do not relate to the rest of the world--it's your subjective point of view. Those links mostly all simply belong in "Everything Else (Music-related)" forum. The legal questions, motivational problems, or whatever personal thoughts involving music--if they do not involve the process of composing music, then they shouldn't be lumped together with the word composition. I don't know why you use the word "composition" to describe those issues. If you looked in every single book about composition written since recorded history ,or stuck your head in every single music class that taught composition, you will not see or hear anything related to those topics. Composition is simply about how one composes music with notes, chords, rhythm, sound, structure...etc--all musical ideas. There is no other definition that's ever been used to describe musical composition. Maybe instead of insisting to cram a bunch of topics not related to composition into the meaning of the word composition, you should reconsidering your own definition of the word?

I think a better and more intuitive approach is to think of a description all those links have in common. To me, it appears they all involve creativity and legal and personal feelings regarding music--all the stuff that's outside of music theory. So why not simply create a forum called:

Creative/Legal Discussions

With a forum name like that, it'll encompass all those links you posted, while people looking to talk about strictly theory stuff will still post in the Music Theory forum. My previous suggestion of Workflow/Inspiration also falls neatly into this more encompassing name.

[Sascha Franck]

I still think a composition forum would be great. Composition is *not* theory at all. It sometimes (or often) involves theory, but that's about it.
Composition and arrangement should have a dedicated space here (those two really go hand in hand very often).
"Inspiration/Workflow" could happily find their places in the composition forum, too.

- Sascha

[ozmoz2008]

/quote]

You're right, but also how do you use these "theory rules", how do you bend them to fit your own musical vision, creation...in fact composition for me is how you interprete rules so that you make a creation out of it etc. Also it could include stuff like, what is your opinion of your own and others compositions ...

That's what I also meant with the fact that practice is different than theory "only"

Obviously theory could be part of composition but not the inverse in a logical sense.

Composition is a wider concept than what theory implies.

As for interest here are some exemples of posts that should have been put under composition forum in the past:

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=

Some music business tips could also be part of the Composition forum.

As you can see some of these exemples where generating some significant traffic and thread replies.

I have to say I don't agree at all. I think maybe you are trying to broaden what the word composition means based on your own preferences, but your preferences do not relate to the rest of the world--it's your subjective point of view. Those links mostly all simply belong in "Everything Else (Music-related)" forum. The legal questions, motivational problems, or whatever personal thoughts involving music--if they do not involve the process of composing music, then they shouldn't be lumped together with the word composition. I don't know why you use the word "composition" to describe those issues. If you looked in every single book about composition written since recorded history ,or stuck your head in every single music class that taught composition, you will not see or hear anything related to those topics. Composition is simply about how one composes music with notes, chords, rhythm, sound, structure...etc--all musical ideas. There is no other definition that's ever been used to describe musical composition. Maybe instead of insisting to cram a bunch of topics not related to composition into the meaning of the word composition, you should reconsidering your own definition of the word?

I think a better and more intuitive approach is to think of a description all those links have in common. To me, it appears they all involve creativity and legal and personal feelings regarding music--all the stuff that's outside of music theory. So why not simply create a forum called:

Creative/Legal Discussions

With a forum name like that, it'll encompass all those links you posted, while people looking to talk about strictly theory stuff will still post in the Music Theory forum. My previous suggestion of Workflow/Inspiration also falls neatly into this more encompassing name.

So do I then...it's not only a "personnal" thing it's a matter of understanding what IS composition as a "fact" not something only written in books...and gived in courses at schools... That's all...I just don't get your point...

As beeing a professional composer for the last 25 years I know what I am talking about, sorry Lunatique...you are assuming lots of things here

Theory is only a part of the compostion process...and not ONLY theory can explain that process...there is a lot of other things that do...

So yes composition is NOT only related to "Theory of music"...That's all and this is not a personnal thing it's a fact.

If you consider that writting about any composition subjects becomes by itself "music theory"...then maybe you make sense...but if you think about the day to day facts of composition that you could write in forums such as KVR...then it doesn't make sense...the later been my present point of view...

If you look at pure definition...it really doesn't say that theory is the only thing in composition:
For ex. from Wikipedia:
Musical composition, an original piece of music and its creation

One of the definitons:
A piece of music exists in the form of a written composition in musical notation or as a single acoustic event (a live performance or recorded track). If composed before being performed, music can be performed from memory, through written musical notation, or through a combination of both. Compositions comprise musical elements, which vary widely from person to person and between cultures. Improvisation is the act of composing during the performance, assembling musical elements spontaneously.

So the word creation is a big aspect of this definition...and that can't only been explain through what we usually call "theory"

You will see in the next link that music is a lot more than only "charts" same goes for "composition"

A good documentary about music and brains:
http://watch.ctv.ca/news/w-five/w-five- ... clip135228

Hope you enjoy...cool documentary...doesn't cover everything, but still nicely explained.