Composing Forum

[Ogg Vorbis]

Should have called this thread, "Yet Another Can of Worms." Hey, maybe that would be a good name for KVR's composition forum!

[Lunatique]

So do I then...it's not only a "personnal" thing it's a matter of understanding what IS composition as a "fact" not something only written in books...and gived in courses at schools... That's all...I just don't get your point...

Are you saying that the people who write books on composition and teach it in music schools around the world since hundreds of years ago till now are wrong, and you are the only one who is right?

If you consider that writting about any composition subjects becomes by itself "music theory"...then maybe you make sense...but if you think about the day to day facts of composition that you could write in forums such as KVR...then it doesn't make sense...the later been my present point of view...

To me, music theory is simply the language used to discuss the structure of music and the ideas behind them. Music theory is simply music translated into a language that could be discussed and taught. That's it. No more, no less. So composition to me is covered by music theory because the language used to discuss composition is music theory. If you are talking about the workflow and inspiration and writing process outside of what could be analyzed by music theory, then yes, that is part of the compositional process outside of theory and differs from one person to the next--it's called personal preference and habit. It cannot be simply categorized and analyzed and structured and discussed and taught in a systematic and scientific way that would be of the most help to aspiring musicians around the world. It's all based on personal preference. The universal language of music cannot successfully document personal habits and preferences easily. This is why I suggested we could have a dedicated forum dealing just with the aspects of composition that is not covered by theory, can call it something else other than the term composition, because the technical meaning of composition as musicians generally know it is firmly part of music theory. In fact, the whole point of developing a universal language that describe musical ideas and structures in the first place IS to allow musicians to discuss composition and arrangement and performance and to be able to document and pass on these ideas. That's why music theory exists.

Let me draw an analogy here. Let's say we're talking composing a picture as an artist. In art, there are theories too--there's color theory, composition, anatomy, perspective, values, lighting...etc. These visual art foundational theories are the universal language used to discuss how one composes and structures and finishes a piece of visual art. Composition in visual art is the science of how the spatial relationship in an image's various elements are arranged to create the most interesting image. That is the official definition of the word composition used in the context of visual art. What you are saying, is basically trying to have composition also cover topics like how one finds inspiration, how one becomes motivated, how one sets up one's easel, how one places one's brushes and paints, how one arranges one's palette, how one would find out if a reference photo is legal to use, how one decides what to paint...etc. Sure, you can say that they are part of the process of how one composes an image in a very broad sense, but that would be misusing the word composition in the context of visual art, and altering the established definition for that word that all artists past and present already know it, and how it is taught to aspiring artists world wide.

[ozmoz2008]

Are you saying that the people who write books on composition and teach it in music schools around the world since hundreds of years ago till now are wrong, and you are the only one who is right?

Are you flamning Lunatique?...or are you lunatique

I didn't say this at all I just said that Theory does NOT implies all of what is composition...that's all.

To me, music theory is simply the language used to discuss the structure of music and the ideas behind them. Music theory is simply music translated into a language that could be discussed and taught. That's it. No more, no less. So composition to me is covered by music theory because the language used to discuss composition is music theory. If you are talking about the workflow and inspiration and writing process outside of what could be analyzed by music theory, then yes, that is part of the compositional process outside of theory and differs from one person to the next--it's called personal preference and habit. It cannot be simply categorized and analyzed and structured and discussed and taught in a systematic and scientific way that would be of the most help to aspiring musicians around the world. It's all based on personal preference.

Yes it can as any social or individual habits can...Don't you think music theory is also a human representation of music and not an absolute in itself...It is just schemes that makes us understand faster this and that, but it is not in anyway an absolute on the creative and composition process...it is just part of it...sorry still there...science goes way further than simple theories that have been teach for years at schools...so do explanation of music to another composer or musician...you don't even need music theory to get your message through

The universal language of music cannot successfully document personal habits and preferences easily. This is why I suggested we could have a dedicated forum dealing just with the aspects of composition that is not covered by theory, can call it something else other than the term composition, because the technical meaning of composition as musicians generally know it is firmly part of music theory. In fact, the whole point of developing a universal language that describe musical ideas and structures in the first place IS to allow musicians to discuss composition and arrangement and performance and to be able to document and pass on these ideas. That's why music theory exists.

True, but as I've said there is other ways too...that people understand and that can help any "aspiring musicians" like you said.

Let me draw an analogy here. Let's say we're talking composing a picture as an artist. In art, there are theories too--there's color theory, composition, anatomy, perspective, values, lighting...etc. These visual art foundational theories are the universal language used to discuss how one composes and structures and finishes a piece of visual art. Composition in visual art is the science of how the spatial relationship in an image's various elements are arranged to create the most interesting image. That is the official definition of the word composition used in the context of visual art. What you are saying, is basically trying to have composition also cover topics like how one finds inspiration, how one becomes motivated, how one sets up one's easel, how one places one's brushes and paints, how one arranges one's palette, how one would find out if a reference photo is legal to use, how one decides what to paint...etc. Sure, you can say that they are part of the process of how one composes an image in a very broad sense, but that would be misusing the word composition in the context of visual art, and altering the established definition for that word that all artists past and present already know it, and how it is taught to aspiring artists world wide.

Not true...There is many ways to learn art without "scientific" or "theoric" approaches...but I do agree that it is an efficient way to understand why this and that gives this and that type of results...again depending on whom is doing this and that and in what circumstances...It's like in communication, there is not only the plain transmission and reception, but the context and the non verbal things that count...so with composition, yes the typical theory of music covers a lot, but not all aspect of it...unless we change the meanning known to day about what is "music theory"...for me there is many other scientific approach to learn about the composition process...and I don't find that music theory is covering everything...maybe because they can't include what you could called "subjectivity" in it...and as you may know(maybe not) it is truly a part of it.

So you were talking about writing about composition that becomes Music theory by itself... Wow!...that's not we are all use to call theory around here...maybe in China...but not in Canada...Music theory here is about reading music and music "rules" and not about all what implies "composition"....are we living in the same world?

I've work with hundreds of musicians...and they all understand THAT meaning of music theory...sorry Lunatique...but it seems that you are trying yourself to include in music theory more than it is in the day to day reality of our spoken world...

I guess we don't agree on this one...That's typical KVR can of worms it seems...hope not...

Finally, I do think it was a good idea to do a different forum on composition...and it seems than more and more the present thread should be part of that forum ...

[Lunatique]

So you were talking about writing about composition that becomes Music theory by itself... Wow!...that's not we are all use to call theory around here...maybe in China...but not in Canada...Music theory here is about reading music and music "rules" and not about all what implies "composition"....are we living in the same world?

I've work with hundreds of musicians...and they all understand THAT meaning of music theory...sorry Lunatique...but it seems that you are trying yourself to include in music theory more than it is in the day to day reality of our spoken world...

I guess we don't agree on this one...That's typical KVR can of worms it seems...hope not...

Finally, I do think it was a good idea to do a different forum on composition...and it seems than more and more the present thread should be part of that forum ...

I'm an American. I just happen to be living in China at the moment. I've also lived in other countries as well.

Look, I'm not trying to disagree just for the sake of having fun or something. I'm simply trying to help this forum become more organized and easier to use and more helpful to people who want to learn. I don't actually mind that you want to use the word composition in a more broad context to include any creative thought or process in the compositional phase--even those that cannot be documented and discussed in the universal language of music theory. What becomes a problem for me is that you are not looking at the whole issue from the grand scheme of the entire forum structure. Let's say KVR decides to adopt your definition and adds a new forum called "Composition." Then what? If someone is trying to learn about arrangement and orchestration, which forum would they go to? That's the problem I see--if you single out composition, then you must also address arrangement, and I doubt KVR would want to add yet another forum just for arrangement. So what's going to be your solution for arrangement?

In the end, my main objection to your suggestion is for the sake of forum structure. We must address composition and arrangement with equal importance, and I prefer the more elegant solution of putting composition and arrangement together in one forum, then the other creative/workflow topics in another forum, for the simple fact that composition and arrangement can be discussed in the universal language of music theory, while personal creative habits and workflow does not have a universal language that could be used to document in an elegant system of shorthand or carefully designed structure.

[ozmoz2008]

So you were talking about writing about composition that becomes Music theory by itself... Wow!...that's not we are all use to call theory around here...maybe in China...but not in Canada...Music theory here is about reading music and music "rules" and not about all what implies "composition"....are we living in the same world?

I've work with hundreds of musicians...and they all understand THAT meaning of music theory...sorry Lunatique...but it seems that you are trying yourself to include in music theory more than it is in the day to day reality of our spoken world...

I guess we don't agree on this one...That's typical KVR can of worms it seems...hope not...

Finally, I do think it was a good idea to do a different forum on composition...and it seems than more and more the present thread should be part of that forum ...

I'm an American. I just happen to be living in China at the moment. I've also lived in other countries as well.

Look, I'm not trying to disagree just for the sake of having fun or something. I'm simply trying to help this forum become more organized and easier to use and more helpful to people who want to learn. I don't actually mind that you want to use the word composition in a more broad context to include any creative thought or process in the compositional phase--even those that cannot be documented and discussed in the universal language of music theory. What becomes a problem for me is that you are not looking at the whole issue from the grand scheme of the entire forum structure. Let's say KVR decides to adopt your definition and adds a new forum called "Composition." Then what? If someone is trying to learn about arrangement and orchestration, which forum would they go to? That's the problem I see--if you single out composition, then you must also address arrangement, and I doubt KVR would want to add yet another forum just for arrangement. So what's going to be your solution for arrangement?

In the end, my main objection to your suggestion is for the sake of forum structure. We must address composition and arrangement with equal importance, and I prefer the more elegant solution of putting composition and arrangement together in one forum, then the other creative/workflow topics in another forum, for the simple fact that composition and arrangement can be discussed in the universal language of music theory, while personal creative habits and workflow does not have a universal language that could be used to document in an elegant system of shorthand or carefully designed structure.

I understand your point, but I would like to specify that for me arrangement is still composition...since you do have to create music(or sounds etc)and that the word "Composition" can easily have under it's umbrella both the music theory and all the other matters that concern music creation. For me it is a simple schematic solution to better understand the Forum titles.

But if you don't understand the fact that Composition is broader than only Music theory, and that you can learn in a both scientific and personal experience other aspect of composition....then maybe just keep the title as is...it doesn't really matter for me or the rest of KVR members...but it will be a more "complete" and "helpful" experience to visitors to see more information on composition matters if it was including more topics related to composition other than music theory.

Hope I was clear enough...and hope you understand me when I'm saying that we can communicate in other way creative ideas in music composition than by using music theory alone

Take care...

[me109]

Having just read/skimmed through the four pages, it seems that 'composing' as it's used here refers to creating all types of music, from orchestral composition to punk rock. Just as someone said, there are many different aspects to composing a painting (i.e. color, form, proportion...) there are many topics that would be included under composition.

What I don't understand is that there seems to be an unwritten prohibition against using the word 'lyrics'. Rarely are they taken into account in any part of kvr that I've seen. Yet, the interaction between the music and the lyrics is an absolutely essential part of writing a good song. The words and music should provide inspiration for each other. Is it possible that this could be a place for songwriters to discuss this important subject?

[Lunatique]

What I don't understand is that there seems to be an unwritten prohibition against using the word 'lyrics'. Rarely are they taken into account in any part of kvr that I've seen. Yet, the interaction between the music and the lyrics is an absolutely essential part of writing a good song. The words and music should provide inspiration for each other. Is it possible that this could be a place for songwriters to discuss this important subject?

It seems opinions polarize here at KVR regarding lyrics--some care, some never bothered to understand what the songs are about. I'm one of those people who actually care a lot about what the lyrics say, because if it wasn't important to the songwriter, he wouldn't have bothered and just made an instrumental track. Lyrics tell a story or express an idea or emotion, and to ignore that and only listen to the timbre of a person's voice is a bit like only liking people for their looks and not their personality. But at the same time, there are song "songwriters" who don't care much for lyrics and just make up any shit that will fit the rhythm of the song--they only like the format of songs with lyrics but not the fact they could be expressing something with the lyrics.

The way lyrics work together with the music is actually a deep enough topic to warrant its own forum--Songwriting. But I have no idea if it'll be popular enough of a topic here at KVR. Perhaps just include it in another forum?

[ozmoz2008]

...there are many topics that would be included under composition...The words and music should provide inspiration for each other. Is it possible that this could be a place for songwriters to discuss this important subject?

I think that songwriting should be a part of the composition forum...if it ever exist

There is some interesting thread topics to be explored there ...I agree.