Follower or Leader?

[eduardo_b]

maybe i did read too much into those three words, but i'm starting to think that "originality" is now open to interpretation, or at least the people defending it's lack of importance want it to be open to interpretation. you yourself admit "that's what he probably meant by overrated", which tells me you're not 100% sure.

Well, I only have the same words to work with as you, and I obviously can't get inside his head to predict his exact meanings. So that's just how I take it.

Did I have a definition of originality in mind when I said it's overrated? Not really. I took it to mean different than anything else, which to me is not a goal easily achieved or done well, and also not of much importance. Sure, it's nice to hear new music that one likes, but new doesn't mean not like anything else.

Does difficulty of execution make some music better than other music. No. Does sharing traits of existing music make it less worthy or enjoyable. No. Does not being original diminish the talents of the musician? No.

I wonder if the terms original and copy carry significance from early in childhood, when doing schoolwork and being admonished to not copy but do one's own work. Copying is hardly a crime against creativity, but perhaps the negative connotation lingers on. Copying is also linked to imitating, as if one is taking credit for the creativity of someone else. There's a lot of psychological baggage attached to these words, and maybe that contributes to the opinions being expressed about them. As if originality is the only legitimate form of art.

[Lunatique]

Fine, everything's valid, everything's equally important and of the same value and merit and nothing, no one, can be judged by any standard of excellence in any way shape or form, unless the person expressing a personal opinion wants to be called a fascist. All human beings are exactly the same--like clones, and sharing the same brain--no difference between us at all in any way. It's forbidden for you to be better than me in any endeavor because that's not allowed, and I'm forbidden to be any worse than you at any particular endeavor because it'll break this utopia we live in. We can all claim to be whatever we say we are, since there are no standards to speak of. There is no excellence to strive for. Anything we pull out of our asses will automatically be brilliant. The world is a utopia. Rejoice.

[robogone]

blah blah blah

what a great display of 'communication'. here's a tip; saying something then running away when people challenge it isn't being 'the messenger'. its being 'the troll'.

Running away?
Oh, that's right, you're the self-appointed troll spotter...off the mark yet again.

Actually I think he's very much on the mark. Typical of a troll to suggest that the 'troll spotter' got the wrong person.

[vurt]

Fine, everything's valid, everything's equally important

actually the point is more that everything is equally "unimportant", there is a difference.
ie what you do isnt special.

[Chuck E. Jesus]

All human beings are exactly the same--like clones, and sharing the same brain--no difference between us at all in any way...

it seems that way...

[eduardo_b]

yes i may adore and create noise type sounds (mistakenly called by idiots "experimental") i do in fact listen to and enjoy lots of other musics, as do many of my peers.

What is it called then? That's not a term I chose to use initially. I suppose it might be called industrial ambient, one of the dozen plus sub-genres of ambient that have evolved from the Eno-esque origins (I'm ignoring the first half of the 20th century in this regard).

nowadays i realise the problem isnt mine, its the naysayers. because for whatever reason they feel a need to poke their noses into things they have no understanding whatsoever of.

I noted in the past that some of the stuff you do is quite nice, although admittedly not all of it, and it can be an acquired taste. I might say that a little can go a long way.

But as for not understanding it, it's not really any different than not understanding or getting opera, or rap, or country western. It's personal taste, isn't it? Not appreciating some kinds of music isn't a sign of ignorance or intolerance. People like what they like, and equally dislike other genres. No news here.

[eduardo_b]

blah blah blah

what a great display of 'communication'. here's a tip; saying something then running away when people challenge it isn't being 'the messenger'. its being 'the troll'.

Running away?
Oh, that's right, you're the self-appointed troll spotter...off the mark yet again.

Actually I think he's very much on the mark. Typical of a troll to suggest that the 'troll spotter' got the wrong person.

Circular "reasoning." Much like defining the definition of a word with the word itself.

[vurt]

yes i may adore and create noise type sounds (mistakenly called by idiots "experimental") i do in fact listen to and enjoy lots of other musics, as do many of my peers.

What is it called then? That's not a term I chose to use initially. I suppose it might be called industrial ambient, one of the dozen plus sub-genres of ambient that have evolved from the Eno-esque origins (I'm ignoring the first half of the 20th century in this regard).

i call it sound sculpture. and to be honest im not really interested in pigeon holing, if i did id go with minimalism as described by tom johnson in the village voice.
im not saying experimental doesnt exist.
i suppose enos idea of what ambient is may come close to some of my works (and i suppose my ideals in mthe majority if im honest)

nowadays i realise the problem isnt mine, its the naysayers. because for whatever reason they feel a need to poke their noses into things they have no understanding whatsoever of.

I noted in the past that some of the stuff you do is quite nice, although admittedly not all of it, and it can be an acquired taste. I might say that a little can go a long way.

so there is good within the genre?

But as for not understanding it, it's not really any different than not understanding or getting opera, or rap, or country western. It's personal taste, isn't it? Not appreciating some kinds of music isn't a sign of ignorance or intolerance. People like what they like, and equally dislike other genres. No news here.

i dont tend to dismiss the works as unimportant just because im not really in to rock n roll
in fact what i do is try to listen to as much of that as i can, not becaus i feel i have to enjoy it, but because the fact there is a market (be it 10 listeners or 10 million) then there must be something in there to hear.

in all id prefer to hear you be passionate about something than dispassionate about something you have no taste for, as you say its personal.
and how dare anyone assume that your preferences are superior to others, whether you think its market value or origiality that counts, enjoy what you enjoy and be thankful its there, without trying to make other peoples enjoyment difficult.

[herodotus]

Fine, everything's valid, everything's equally important and of the same value and merit and nothing, no one, can be judged by any standard of excellence in any way shape or form, unless the person expressing a personal opinion wants to be called a fascist. All human beings are exactly the same--like clones, and sharing the same brain--no difference between us at all in any way. It's forbidden for you to be better than me in any endeavor because that's not allowed, and I'm forbidden to be any worse than you at any particular endeavor because it'll break this utopia we live in. We can all claim to be whatever we say we are, since there are no standards to speak of. There is no excellence to strive for. Anything we pull out of our asses will automatically be brilliant. The world is a utopia. Rejoice.

I don't think anyone here is saying anything like that.

But 'standards' have to be based on something other than cultural prejudice for anyone to take them seriously. So far as I have seen, there is very little other than cultural prejudice involved in these discussions.

Music is a complex concept that is very hard to understand. Most people, and that includes pretty much everyone in this thread, have a very limited understanding of it. So does one admit, ala Socrates, that one doesn't understand it, or does one exalt ones own prejudices to the level of 'standard'?

Keep in mind this is not coming from an 'amateur', but from a professional drummerwith over 20 years of experience and over 5 years of formal training.

[serve]

Oops, I guess I kinda opened Pandora's Box on this one.

I think everyone for the most part is correct. I'm correct in saying I find it sad that alot of artists spend their time trying to imitate instead of focusing more on finding their own voice. However I see the point one had made in which they stated that many imitate their heros and the genre they are most akin too only to improve apon or morph over time into something all together different and grand. I also see that most of us have aview of what art is, whether that be audio, material, or what have you. In My own opinion I feel that whats the greatest thing about art and creativity is that its the creator ultimatly who decides. And then secondly the general public. But the general public does not have the final word.

No one can decide whether something is art but the creator him/her self and thats the bottom line.

The only thing we get to decide is whether its up to our liking or not.

[dan_s]

if we didn't imitate someone else only 1 person would have plugged in their computer.

a lot of people learn through imitation. sometimes getting close to someone elses sound helps to spark new ideas and thats how new gend(r)e(r)s are created

[eduardo_b]

yes i may adore and create noise type sounds (mistakenly called by idiots "experimental") i do in fact listen to and enjoy lots of other musics, as do many of my peers.

What is it called then? That's not a term I chose to use initially. I suppose it might be called industrial ambient, one of the dozen plus sub-genres of ambient that have evolved from the Eno-esque origins (I'm ignoring the first half of the 20th century in this regard).

i call it sound sculpture. and to be honest im not really interested in pigeon holing, if i did id go with minimalism as described by tom johnson in the village voice.
im not saying experimental doesnt exist.
i suppose enos idea of what ambient is may come close to some of my works (and i suppose my ideals in mthe majority if im honest)

I like that -- sound sculpture. My reaction to Eno's iconic work, Music For Airports, is that of minimlism, but it conveys so much despite its simplicity. Some people don't like his being linked to ambient, which they trace back much further in the century. I didn't realize you were into his work.

nowadays i realise the problem isnt mine, its the naysayers. because for whatever reason they feel a need to poke their noses into things they have no understanding whatsoever of.

I noted in the past that some of the stuff you do is quite nice, although admittedly not all of it, and it can be an acquired taste. I might say that a little can go a long way.

so there is good within the genre?

Of course, but I find so much of it dissonant. You understand what I mean by that? Grating, shrill, non-melodic sounds. It simply doesn't sit well with me.

My introduction to ambient came by way of Music From The Hearts of Space, which was carried on various NPR stations in the US back in the 90s, if I remember correctly. It was so interesting and appealing. In the late 90s I started looking for more ambient but found some of it had acquired percussion, and then so-called industrial ambient showed up, with that bloody dissonance.

But as for not understanding it, it's not really any different than not understanding or getting opera, or rap, or country western. It's personal taste, isn't it? Not appreciating some kinds of music isn't a sign of ignorance or intolerance. People like what they like, and equally dislike other genres. No news here.

i dont tend to dismiss the works as unimportant just because im not really in to rock n roll
in fact what i do is try to listen to as much of that as i can, not becaus i feel i have to enjoy it, but because the fact there is a market (be it 10 listeners or 10 million) then there must be something in there to hear.

I do sample a lot of music just to find out what it is. Once in a while I'll find something really cool. To me it sounds original (there's that word ), by which I mean new to me. It may also actually be quite original, but I have no way of determining that.

in all id prefer to hear you be passionate about something than dispassionate about something you have no taste for, as you say its personal.
and how dare anyone assume that your preferences are superior to others, whether you think its market value or origiality that counts, enjoy what you enjoy and be thankful its there, without trying to make other peoples enjoyment difficult.

People can be very judgemental about what others like, so I keep a minimal profile regarding this. I have well over a thousand CDs and megabytes of stuff covering a very wide range of music, but I doubt much of it would be esoteric or obscure enough for many here. It goes all the way from Apocalyptica to Yeah Yeah Yeahs to Dire Straits and Tom Petty. And even shite like Lily Allen and Coldplay. Many albums from every decade since 1960. If it connects at some level, it works for me. For some, this makes me middlebrow on a good day, and far worse otherwise. Such is life.

Whatever someone likes is fine with me. As long as they enjoy it, why should anyone else care. I also don't care about how original or derivative music is. It gets its own space, and I either want to hear it again or never again depending on how I react it. I'm sure you do the same, letting the music be itself.

[vespers75]

Fine, everything's valid, everything's equally important and of the same value and merit and nothing, no one, can be judged by any standard of excellence in any way shape or form, unless the person expressing a personal opinion wants to be called a fascist. All human beings are exactly the same--like clones, and sharing the same brain--no difference between us at all in any way. It's forbidden for you to be better than me in any endeavor because that's not allowed, and I'm forbidden to be any worse than you at any particular endeavor because it'll break this utopia we live in. We can all claim to be whatever we say we are, since there are no standards to speak of. There is no excellence to strive for. Anything we pull out of our asses will automatically be brilliant. The world is a utopia. Rejoice.

I don't think anyone here is saying anything like that.

But 'standards' have to be based on something other than cultural prejudice for anyone to take them seriously. So far as I have seen, there is very little other than cultural prejudice involved in these discussions.

Music is a complex concept that is very hard to understand. Most people, and that includes pretty much everyone in this thread, have a very limited understanding of it. So does one admit, ala Socrates, that one doesn't understand it, or does one exalt ones own prejudices to the level of 'standard'?

Keep in mind this is not coming from an 'amateur', but from a professional drummerwith over 20 years of experience and over 5 years of formal training.

While I agree with much of what you've said in this thread, you're starting to sound a bit arrogant...not saying its intentional, though. Insinuating everyone in this thread has a limited understanding of music, then dropping the "I'm not an amateur, I'm a drummer with 20 years experience, formal training, listen to this clip of my drumming, etc." seems to infer that you're thinking you're an expert beyond all others participating in this conversation. Then declaring 'cultural prejudice' is all you've seen in these discussions? Like I said, you've brought up some very interesting and valid points...but this post comes across with a sense of loftiness, akin to those who spoke of credentials to judge art earlier in this conversation.

[herodotus]

Fine, everything's valid, everything's equally important and of the same value and merit and nothing, no one, can be judged by any standard of excellence in any way shape or form, unless the person expressing a personal opinion wants to be called a fascist. All human beings are exactly the same--like clones, and sharing the same brain--no difference between us at all in any way. It's forbidden for you to be better than me in any endeavor because that's not allowed, and I'm forbidden to be any worse than you at any particular endeavor because it'll break this utopia we live in. We can all claim to be whatever we say we are, since there are no standards to speak of. There is no excellence to strive for. Anything we pull out of our asses will automatically be brilliant. The world is a utopia. Rejoice.

I don't think anyone here is saying anything like that.

But 'standards' have to be based on something other than cultural prejudice for anyone to take them seriously. So far as I have seen, there is very little other than cultural prejudice involved in these discussions.

Music is a complex concept that is very hard to understand. Most people, and that includes pretty much everyone in this thread, have a very limited understanding of it. So does one admit, ala Socrates, that one doesn't understand it, or does one exalt ones own prejudices to the level of 'standard'?

Keep in mind this is not coming from an 'amateur', but from a professional drummerwith over 20 years of experience and over 5 years of formal training.

While I agree with much of what you've said in this thread, you're starting to sound a bit arrogant...not saying its intentional, though. Insinuating everyone in this thread has a limited understanding of music, then dropping the "I'm not an amateur, I'm a drummer with 20 years experience, formal training, listen to this clip of my drumming, etc." seems to infer that you're thinking you're an expert beyond all others participating in this conversation. Then declaring 'cultural prejudice' is all you've seen in these discussions? Like I said, you've brought up some very interesting and valid points...but this post comes across with a sense of loftiness, akin to those who spoke of credentials to judge art earlier in this conversation.

No loftiness at all. I just wanted it to be understood that I am not 'being defensive'. I don't really make much ambient music myself, and when I get pissed at people for being insulting to the 'experimental/ambient crowd' it is not because I feel personally insulted. People often assume this, just like if you come out for drug legalization, everyone assumes you are a user.

I was just trying to provide context. Sorry if it sounded arrogant.

[Chuck E. Jesus]

I don't really make much ambient music myself, and when I get pissed at people for being insulting to the 'experimental/ambient crowd' it is not because I feel personally insulted.

ok, this statement i can totally relate to...