Follower or Leader?

[captain caveman]

People learn by emulation. When you learn an instrument, be it a piano, a guitar, whatever, how many people learn by never listening to and emulating what others have done before them?
Which is most efficient - trying to teach yourself the piano by hitting things at random and experimenting and hoping you'll create something original?. Or alternatively, listen to what others before you have done, learn it, and the techniques and the background and the music theory. Then when you have a foundation you can create.

So which is more efficient?

Efficient is getting someone else to play what you hum, effective is getting piano lessons for several years - preferably when you are a child.

I know that no-one can have time back, but this is the cold reality IME/O.

[eduardo_b]

How about you doing the work and presenting your thesis on originality in the arts

I didn't realize we were going to have to write a paper now because of this thread. I'm so out of here once I graduate.

What makes you think you're graduating?

[eduardo_b]

Originality is overrated.

It may also actually be quite original, but I have no way of determining that.

So originality is overrated, yet, you just admit that you sometimes don't have a way of determining if something is really original. Interesting.

Meaning, it doesn't matter. Therefore, it's overrated. No contradiction. In other words, it's not a criterion for me. It obviously is for some, but I don't think most people rank originality as a must-have with music they like -- or even think of it.

I didn't say that it was necessarily a contradiction. It just means you don't value originality. Which I think is somewhat different from saying originality is overrated.

I don't place a value on originality per se, but I appreciate it when done well. But I don't need originality to appreciate music, films, essays and so on. Originality, to me, is overrated when it becomes the gatekeeper of aesthetic, emotional appreciation. I don't not like something because it doesn't seem original.

If I don't value originality, wouldn't I also conclude that originality is overrated?

[eduardo_b]

what about sampling? do you think that because a hip hop artist samples a record from the 60's that their music doesn't have originality?

Sorry, missed this part.

It depends, I suppose, on -- once again -- the definition of originality. Some people think using loops and samples is a level below actually creating them. Personally, I have no issue with their use. Whether it's original or not is not an issue for me, so I don't apply it.

You might feel different once you've heard Kid Rock's (OK well anything by Kid Rock) All Summer Long, a song that so blatantly samples and rips off both Warren Zevon's Werewolves of London and Lynyrd Skynyrd's Sweet Home Alabama that it actually sends the corpses of both men spinning and vomiting violently in their caskets each time the song is played on the radio. True story.

Is this on YouTube? The spinning, not the song.

[vespers75]

No loftiness at all. I just wanted it to be understood that I am not 'being defensive'. I don't really make much ambient music myself, and when I get pissed at people for being insulting to the 'experimental/ambient crowd' it is not because I feel personally insulted. People often assume this, just like if you come out for drug legalization, everyone assumes you are a user.

I was just trying to provide context. Sorry if it sounded arrogant.

No worries man...I didn't think you were intentionally sounding that way, but I just wanted be clear. And indeed, you definitely know your way around a set of drums, no question.

[vurt]

love your new sig btw Vurt...

it refers to the naming of my brand new machine.
the bugbrand modular has finally started to arrive

[vurt]

People learn by emulation. When you learn an instrument, be it a piano, a guitar, whatever, how many people learn by never listening to and emulating what others have done before them?
Which is most efficient - trying to teach yourself the piano by hitting things at random and experimenting and hoping you'll create something original?. Or alternatively, listen to what others before you have done, learn it, and the techniques and the background and the music theory. Then when you have a foundation you can create.

So which is more efficient?

Efficient is getting someone else to play what you hum, effective is getting piano lessons for several years - preferably when you are a child.

I know that no-one can have time back, but this is the cold reality IME/O.

damn i played banjo for years as a kid instead of piano

[serve]

@dirty oscillators

argh.. too much going on at work and trying to write on here at the same time...

I hear ya, I'm stuck in Salem, Oregon and this forum is my only contact to the outside world........Even though you all are just voices in my head!

[eduardo_b]

As for myself I dislike dance music (I'm into creating things like Robert Rich etc.) however I am curious about the techniques they use, techniques I will never use such as side chained compression trigger from a kick, yet I still want to know how its done, and the best way to do that is by asking or reading past how do I type questions.

I don't hate dance music, and also don't listen to it much either, but I can certainly appreciate the work of Robert Rich. Funny thing is, I also like knowing how various kinds of techniques are done even though I don't personally care that much for some of the genres. I thought maybe it was only me.

Nice post.

[eduardo_b]

@dirty oscillators

argh.. too much going on at work and trying to write on here at the same time...

I hear ya, I'm stuck in Salem, Oregon and this forum is my only contact to the outside world........Even though you all are just voices in my head!

I've heard nice things about Salem 9730x.

[serve]

@eduardo_b

serve wrote:
@dirty oscillators

Quote:

argh.. too much going on at work and trying to write on here at the same time...


I hear ya, I'm stuck in Salem, Oregon and this forum is my only contact to the outside world........Even though you all are just voices in my head!
I've heard nice things about Salem 9730x.

97301

[Lunatique]

I just want to make it clear that I don't like or want to offend people. I'm always growing and learning and I strive to be a well-rounded person. If I have my biases, so do most people. But I try to understand the things I don't gravitate towards, and I try to see other people's point of view and see if I can learn to walk in their shoes and feel how they feel. I'm not some kind of asshole and I don't want to be close-minded. I'm trying, but you guys know what? We all grew up with our own biases and upbringings and cultural influences, and depending on how strong those influences are, it's easier for some of us to shake off those many years of upbringing and influences and learn to understand and appreciate what we have been conditioned to push away, ignore, or find disdainful. The point is I'm trying and I've made progress, and I'll keep on trying. I think there's still hope for me yet.

something i don't completely understand - how does one "analyze" art? as in Lunatique saying earlier today he sits down and analyzes ambient music. if i hear something that "moves me", it's sometimes an inexplicable thing. it's a feeling or an emotion that you can't quantify. this is the sort of thing that contributes to originality. the end result of how a piece of music makes you feel. if you only say that the quantifiable parts are which determine the originality you are only listening (or just analyzing) on a certain level. to me, quantifying music or art, takes the emotion out. but it also makes it easier to say that it's hard to make something sound different.

The reason I try to analyze any piece of music I love is because I want to understand what makes it better to my ears than other similar music. If I'm aiming to improve and learn and grow as a musician, it would make sense that I try to treat music as not only some kind of mystical endeavor akin to magic, but something that could be learned, practiced, taught, and so on. I do the same thing with my paintings, photography, writing, directing...etc. I have to do it this way because it's how I teach myself the things I'm fascinated by an passionate about.

When it comes to soundscape/noise/ambient, I listen for interesting progressions, how different layers of sound fade in and out, how they interact with each other dynamically. I prefer soundscapes that doesn't just drone on and on monotonously, but actually takes me on a journey where there's a beginning, some catalyst that causes some kind of change or progression somewhere during the journey, and some kind of closure (although I don't mind a simple fade out when it works for the track). It's a bit like if someone spoke in an even tone and volume and timbre and speed, he'd sound like a machine, and while that can be cool depending on the context, I do prefer some kind of organic contour in general. Even Kraftwerk (a band I love) has an organic sense of contour in their music as opposed to the really monotonous and robotic stuff. Of course, this is my personal preference.

[eduardo_b]

The point is I'm trying and I've made progress, and I'll keep on trying. I think there's still hope for me yet.

I think this is true for many of us here. I sure hope it is. Not sure about how much hope there is for me, however.

[yellowfever]

The point is I'm trying and I've made progress, and I'll keep on trying. I think there's still hope for me yet.

I think this is true for many of us here. I sure hope it is. Not sure about how much hope there is for me, however.

For as long as my ears, fingers, imagination and heartbeat works, there's hope for me; that's what I think anyway

[tattiemannie]

eduardo-b .... you hope there's hope? .... thats about as valid as hoping there is none ...