Record: New DAW from Propellerheads

[lotus2035]

well then. I am sorry that having an opinion on which software is better offends so many people. Especially when it comes from a long time previous Reason user. I came in this thread to discuss about Record. Sorry if my comments reminded you of how little your mommie loved you. I know I don't get offended if somebody slags a piece of software I use. Grow up people. Or don't and continue to resort to childish insults because your tiny ego is somehow linked to the program you use to make music.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

This time, please click the link and read at least the first part of the article, and remain civil if you want to remain part of the discussion. [edit: The last part of that applies to everyone. Thanks.]

ahh, the infamous strawman tactic.. A.K.A. "talking through one's Arse" as Prince Charles used to say...

[Meffy]

"talking through one's Arse" as Prince Charles used to say...

He never said that to me but: yes, one of several varieties of lower dorsal locution. :-}

Yup, it's all opinion.

*nodnod* Yeah, that.

[Sotiris]

Take Reason 4,
add the "SSL-like" mixer as another extra device,
add audio tracks to the sequencer,
and sell it as Reason 5.
What's wrong with this scenario?

[keyman_sam]

Take Reason 4,
add the "SSL-like" mixer as another extra device,
add audio tracks to the sequencer,
and sell it as Reason 5.
What's wrong with this scenario?

Exactly what I've been saying.

[Fidelity]

Take Reason 4,
add the "SSL-like" mixer as another extra device,
add audio tracks to the sequencer,
and sell it as Reason 5.
What's wrong with this scenario?

They make less money. That's all they care about anyways

[dham]

Well not really. Isn't the upgrade to every version like $150 in the first place. So instead of Reason 5 you have Reason 4 and Record. Granted when reason 5 comes out most people will dish out the money....Or will they? Its sortof like instead of Cubase 5 coming out they just sell another program called Cubad at the same price as an upgrade and that has beat sequencer, drum sampler, and vocal correction, and you can use it as a plug in with cubase 4. So now you have two different things but they work as one. What's the point. Who know's. I think it goes back to maybe not everyone wants audio record. Maybe not everyone wanted a drum sampler. When Sonar came out with the midi tools in 7 maybe that sucked for people who just wanted audio features. It kinda makes since.

[headquest]

Take Reason 4,
add the "SSL-like" mixer as another extra device,
add audio tracks to the sequencer,
and sell it as Reason 5.
What's wrong with this scenario?

I think that the paradigm introduced by Record, and the clear aims of the programme, are quite different from those of Reason. Hence I think it is legitimate to call it something different.

Also worth noting that there are plenty of Reason users who don't want Record, and are happy to work as electro musicians with just Reason. Personally I don't understand why any Reason user would want to pass this up - and I'm sure no KVR regular would understand either because gear lust has a firm grip for most of us here! - but check the Props user forum if you don't believe me.

In other words, why should a Reason user who doesn't want audio recording be made to pay for it? The parts of Record that are great for any Reason user - multiprocessor support, horizontal stacking and racking, etc - will no doubt be included for Reason users in the version 5 upgrade down the line (in just the same way that Cubase and Nuendo each introduce new features that the other subsequently adopt).

So... sure, they could have called it Reason 5, even though it is something totally different to the Reason concept, and still charged the same... but that would I think have been wrong, and many here would have been equally swift to criticise them for it.

As it is, many people like me will want Record + Reason, but some can buy just Record if that really suits their needs (and I'm sure that out there in the big world there will be many who feel Record does suit their needs), while others who want to can stick with just Reason and not pay the extra for Record.

@ Fidelity - sorry to counter your cynicism, but I think that the Props are genuinely trying to be fair here, not screw users for more money. Allowing people to buy just the components they need and not have to pay for the whole shebang unless they need/want to is suirely a good thing, no?

[boimb]

coffee anyone?

[blank/diod]

Take Reason 4,
add the "SSL-like" mixer as another extra device,
add audio tracks to the sequencer,
and sell it as Reason 5.
What's wrong with this scenario?

What's wrong is it is that they think it's the wrong way to go. It forces them into the same "everything-for-everyone" trap that every other company is already in. With Record they want to reach a different target demo, musicians who are reasonably tech-savvy but not DAW-savvy and not too happy about having to buy a bundle of 50 different synths, samplers and drum machines just to get the small audio recording part they need to record their guitar band. Every time someone makes an audio app, it takes about 10 seconds before the EDM police marches in and says "Well well, what's all this then? Where's our arpeggiator? Where's our stuttering and audio mangling? Where's our 48-osc analog synth so we make fat trance leads?". And the EDM police won't leave until the app is exactly the same as every other app before it. Well here's an app that defiantly targets a different demographic. The band in the Record commercial is pretty much the target demo for Record stand-alone. But if you simply must have an EDM factory, they've made it so that Reason will plug seamlessly into Record, and you can buy the bundle for $629, which is 220 bucks less than it costs to buy the Ableton Suite with Live + 8 instruments + sound library. Props are not charging twice for one product, they're simply giving you the option to buy A, B or A+B.

They make less money. That's all they care about anyways

Ha! You don't know a lot about Sweden, do you. The country where making money for money's sake turns you into a pariah. Not that there's any point since it all goes to taxes anyway.

After knowing them for almost 13 years now I can safely say that making a lot of money ranks very low among their priorities. Their goal is to be able to continue doing what they think is fun instead of getting more boring jobs. In order to do so they have to make money to keep the boat afloat. Their prices were always modest. Ever since ReBirth they've been criticized by others in the industry for setting their prices too low. When Reason 1.0 was released, some said "if you sell it this cheap people will think it's a consumer product", but they refused to put an artificial "pro tax" on it. And now they're giving Record to existing Reason users for $149 (including users of Reason 1-3, who will get a Reason 4 upgrade along with Record), which is only 20 bucks more than the Reason 4 upgrade costs - for a product they spent five years on. Yeah sure they only care about money... in mirror universe.

[koalaboy]

Let's take just one simple point here then.

Why no MIDI out ?

It was around way before any of the fancy DAW stuff. Any tech-savvy musician knows what it is, and most others probably have a fair idea.

It's definitely not a stability problem, and it's not copyright so they could have a really cool simple MIDI device, with maybe 8 knobs (each with an assignable CC number). It completely fits their rack metaphor, and is the perfect device to have CV/Gate etc. inputs.

It's possibly the most basic electronic music device, would add immense flexibility to what could be achieved and would let record slot in any chain.

Yet they won't. They'll add an SSL desk simile, full tempo stretching and other technical marvels, but not one of the most basic aspects of electronic music ever.

[blank/diod]

Let's take just one simple point here then.

Why no MIDI out ?

Call it philosophy, faith, policy, whatever, they were simply never about hardware, they were always about replacing it with software. It was even the slogan for Reason ("Replace hardware"). It's not like time has proven them wrong, I mean when Reason 1.0 was released in 2000 people were still buying rack samplers for filthy amounts of money, and today Akai is making MIDI control keyboards to use with software synths and samplers like Reason.

[michat]

coffee anyone?

yes please, black, no sugar or milk.

[Sascha Franck]

I really don't understand the MIDI out thing, either. Probably fine for Reason, defenitely a massive shortcoming in something such as Record. And as you (koalaboy) said, it's defenitely not a technical stability issue or anythin like that.
Ok, I can see what they're going for with all that closed/peroprietary stuff: You'll be able to load each and every Reason/Record project on each and every machine that has it installed and there will never be sounds, plugins or samples missing. That's not a too bad idea, but seriously, I also don't have much problems exchanging files with Cubase/Win users (whereas I'm on Logic/Mac atm), and it's defenitely not something like a MIDI out which would be distracting.
I'm not using MIDI for much more than data input these days, but I do have the occasional system dump from either my Behringer BCR, the GT-10 or TC G-Force (in case I created some special patchings/sounds for that very song), and obviously I want to be able to dump those files back into my devices - without having to deal with another sequencer. And hey, yes, sometimes I do get my old QY-70 out to see what some patches sound like in comparison (in case I need to be GM/XG compatible, which sometimes is still a good idea for collaborations).
Let alone someone might just come along, wanting to record a few of his most liked sounds from whatever external synth/expander - how are Record users going to deal with all that? Apparently these are too esoteric situations for the Propellerheads, even if they happen on a daily base in each and every even remotely professional sequencing environment.
I do sort of understand the benefits of not having to deal with 3rd party plugins, but I completely fail to see why one would not add a MIDI out to a sequencer. It's like instantly assuring that almost no professional productions will be produced in Record alone, people will still always have to use another sequencer additionally.

- Sascha

[koalaboy]

Let's take just one simple point here then.

Why no MIDI out ?

Call it philosophy, faith, policy, whatever, they were simply never about hardware, they were always about replacing it with software. It was even the slogan for Reason ("Replace hardware"). It's not like time has proven them wrong, I mean when Reason 1.0 was released in 2000 people were still buying rack samplers for filthy amounts of money, and today Akai is making MIDI control keyboards to use with software synths and samplers like Reason.

So why do they offer MIDI in ? Surely, if they're replacing hardware then the user should be forced to enter notes with the mouse, or verbally, or ... using some other hardware. Oh.

Good software integrates with other things around it and adds a benefit to the user. It may guide them in a certain way, but it never prevents them from doing what they could previously do.

This is pure proprietary lock-in, no matter how much you like to call it something else.

Everywhere else in the software world, it's about moving towards open standards and integration with others. Service, mash-ups, collaboration etc. The propellerheads seem stuck in the 'our way or the highway' mentality (because they're certainly up to it technically) whilst the world has moved on. Even the hardware manufacturers realise this, and integrate more with software, as you pointed out.

[Sascha Franck]

It might be a philosophy to replace any sound creation tools with internal solutions, fine. But see my example. I sometimes want to dump some sysex data of my BCR into whatever sequencer - and yes, the BCR is specifically used to control my software. So that philosophy just isn't foolproof or anything at all.

- Sascha