Chord Progressions for Aeolian mode

[visa tapani]

Why did you call it aeolian? It's only natural minor, nothing special...

It's not natural minor if it's not used in a functional way, just as ionian is not major if it's not used functionally. For example Stravisnky uses aeolian and ionian but rarely major and minor.

Sorry, i don't see the difference until yet. Any example why a piece of music is in aeolian and NOT in natural minor?

Or did you mean is aeolian fixed to a?!

No I don't mean aeolian as fixed to a. a piece by Stravinsky that uses ionian and aeolian (and other modes) but certainly not major and minor.

In western classical music natural minor tends to appear in an overall minor framework, with melodic and harmonic minor. In A minor, the fundamental chord progression of this framework is Am-E-Am (which follows the harmonic minor). However, if one was to play a descending scale starting from a, one would probably use the natural minor scale. If one was using an ascending scale starting from, say, e, one would probably use the melodic minor scale. Most harmonic progressions would utilize the harmonic minor, but the III chord (C major in Am) would almost always be according to the natural minor, ie without #7.

Not a good explanation, sorry. The most important difference is the underlying harmonic framework of Minor, which is absent in aeolian. Anyway, if one was to analyze the Stravinsky example as using minor and major one would be gravely mistaken.

[visa tapani]

Am - Am(b13)
That will give you a distinctly A Aeolian sound

Well that can be A harmonic minor as well. For example if you play Am - F - E9-8 you have a chord progression that starts like yours but sounds distinctly like harmonic minor.

Well, i would have a serious hard time calling my progression A Harmonic Minor without the C and G# present.

No of course not. (Although I'm not quite sure what you mean with C present - are you saying that the III is an ultimately necessary chord to define harmonic minor?) However, my point was that your progression is not very characteristically aeolian either, as it doesn't contain the most distinct tone of that mode - g. Your progression could just as easily be phrygian for instance. Hence your progression does not give a "distinctly A Aeolian sound".

If I just repeatedly hammer out Am chord, it's not really A minor yet, but it's not distinctly A aeolian either - it hasn't yet demonstrated characteristics of any mode to sufficient extent to determine.

[nuffink]

Modes are scales, no?

Not quite. Modes have a specific start point scales don't. The Major scale is the Major scale no matter which scale degree you start on. The Aeolian mode can only start on the 6th degree of the scale, the Phrygian only on the 3rd. Scales contain modes.

I think that's not 100% right, or am i misunderstood your post? I can start the aeolian on e (e-f#-g-a-b-c-d-e) and the the phrygian on a (a-a#-c-d-e-f-g-a) for example.

If you want to use only the white keys, than yes you have to start for the aeolian mode on the 6th and for the phrygian on the 3rd degree of the major scale/ionian mode.

You're absolutely right, you misunderstood my post.

[nuffink]

Modes are scales, no?

Not quite. Modes have a specific start point scales don't. The Major scale is the Major scale no matter which scale degree you start on. The Aeolian mode can only start on the 6th degree of the scale, the Phrygian only on the 3rd. Scales contain modes.

My knowledge isn't super-cultivated, but I think that may be an overly technical way of looking at it.

When you refer to a scale you generally are specifically referring to the first mode of that scale. Looking at modes "of a scale" is useful in analyzing how those modes relate diatonically to other modes of that scale, but it's more common (and more generally useful) just to think of modes as "alternate scales" which simply have different (and distinctive) pitch patterns.

So I would say, yeah, modes are scales, basically.

When I refer to a scale I most certainly am not referring to the first mode of that scale. I'm referring to the scale.

[Rellik]

Modes are scales, no?

Not quite. Modes have a specific start point scales don't. The Major scale is the Major scale no matter which scale degree you start on. The Aeolian mode can only start on the 6th degree of the scale, the Phrygian only on the 3rd. Scales contain modes.

My knowledge isn't super-cultivated, but I think that may be an overly technical way of looking at it.

When you refer to a scale you generally are specifically referring to the first mode of that scale. Looking at modes "of a scale" is useful in analyzing how those modes relate diatonically to other modes of that scale, but it's more common (and more generally useful) just to think of modes as "alternate scales" which simply have different (and distinctive) pitch patterns.

So I would say, yeah, modes are scales, basically.

When I refer to a scale I most certainly am not referring to the first mode of that scale. I'm referring to the scale.

If I sit you at a piano and ask you to play me a C major scale, are you going to ask me which mode?

Also, visa tapani, what's so wrong with calling the major chords/scale present in Petrouchka major? I mean, regardless of functionality, to me, major is major. If we're in C major and the current root is A and there are no accidentals, then I'd call it natural minor just as soon as I'd call it Aeolian. Or do the terms major/minor have connotations of functionality/tonality?

[nuffink]

Modes are scales, no?

Not quite. Modes have a specific start point scales don't. The Major scale is the Major scale no matter which scale degree you start on. The Aeolian mode can only start on the 6th degree of the scale, the Phrygian only on the 3rd. Scales contain modes.

My knowledge isn't super-cultivated, but I think that may be an overly technical way of looking at it.

When you refer to a scale you generally are specifically referring to the first mode of that scale. Looking at modes "of a scale" is useful in analyzing how those modes relate diatonically to other modes of that scale, but it's more common (and more generally useful) just to think of modes as "alternate scales" which simply have different (and distinctive) pitch patterns.

So I would say, yeah, modes are scales, basically.

When I refer to a scale I most certainly am not referring to the first mode of that scale. I'm referring to the scale.

If I sit you at a piano and ask you to play me a C major scale, are you going to ask me which mode?

What the f**k does that have to do with it?

[jopy]

Or did you mean is aeolian fixed to a?!

The old modal system basically had a fixed note, as you describe, with other colour notes of the mode used at will, for almost exclusively melodic purposes.
Harmony didnt really exist then.

Just a nit picking thing (that completely agrees with your post), but FUNCTIONAL harmony didn't exist until then. Lots of modal music contained harmonies, but it didn't have the sense of a dominant chord resolving to a tonic chord. Perotin had gorgeous non-functional harmonic ideas. There are interesting harmonic relationships found in lots of more contemporary modal music as well, like the stacked fourths used for "chords" in modal jazz.

Just thought that way of thinking might help clarify the difference for the OP.

[Rellik]

Modes are scales, no?

Not quite. Modes have a specific start point scales don't. The Major scale is the Major scale no matter which scale degree you start on. The Aeolian mode can only start on the 6th degree of the scale, the Phrygian only on the 3rd. Scales contain modes.

My knowledge isn't super-cultivated, but I think that may be an overly technical way of looking at it.

When you refer to a scale you generally are specifically referring to the first mode of that scale. Looking at modes "of a scale" is useful in analyzing how those modes relate diatonically to other modes of that scale, but it's more common (and more generally useful) just to think of modes as "alternate scales" which simply have different (and distinctive) pitch patterns.

So I would say, yeah, modes are scales, basically.

When I refer to a scale I most certainly am not referring to the first mode of that scale. I'm referring to the scale.

If I sit you at a piano and ask you to play me a C major scale, are you going to ask me which mode?

What the f**k does that have to do with it?

Aaah, I'm not quite sure why you're cursing, hopefully I haven't offended you somehow? In any case, my point is that the answer to "are modes scales?" is basically that they are for your average intents and purposes equivalent.

My point is that whether it's a mode or a scale, it's just a root and a pitch pattern. You can play a "C lydian" just as easily as you can play a "C major". Your point was that scales are just pitch patterns without roots, whereas I think that in general speaking, a D major scale implies a D root.

[nuffink]

Not quite. Modes have a specific start point scales don't. The Major scale is the Major scale no matter which scale degree you start on. The Aeolian mode can only start on the 6th degree of the scale, the Phrygian only on the 3rd. Scales contain modes.

My knowledge isn't super-cultivated, but I think that may be an overly technical way of looking at it.

When you refer to a scale you generally are specifically referring to the first mode of that scale. Looking at modes "of a scale" is useful in analyzing how those modes relate diatonically to other modes of that scale, but it's more common (and more generally useful) just to think of modes as "alternate scales" which simply have different (and distinctive) pitch patterns.

So I would say, yeah, modes are scales, basically.

When I refer to a scale I most certainly am not referring to the first mode of that scale. I'm referring to the scale.

If I sit you at a piano and ask you to play me a C major scale, are you going to ask me which mode?

What the f**k does that have to do with it?

Aaah, I'm not quite sure why you're cursing, hopefully I haven't offended you somehow? In any case, my point is that the answer to "are modes scales?" is basically that they are for your average intents and purposes equivalent.

My point is that whether it's a mode or a scale, it's just a root and a pitch pattern. You can play a "C lydian" just as easily as you can play a "C major". Your point was that scales are just pitch patterns without roots, whereas I think that in general speaking, a D major scale implies a D root.

Rubbish. If you ask me to play C major I'll play all the white keys...

...starting on F.

[Rellik]

And I'd say "why did you play F Lydian instead of C major?"

[nuffink]

And I'd say "why did you play F Lydian instead of C major?"

And you'd be wrong.

[jopy]

My point is that whether it's a mode or a scale, it's just a root and a pitch pattern. You can play a "C lydian" just as easily as you can play a "C major". Your point was that scales are just pitch patterns without roots, whereas I think that in general speaking, a D major scale implies a D root.

The individual notes might be the same for C major and F Lydian, but the guiding harmonic principles are totally different.

[silenthill2006]

My point is that whether it's a mode or a scale, it's just a root and a pitch pattern. You can play a "C lydian" just as easily as you can play a "C major". Your point was that scales are just pitch patterns without roots, whereas I think that in general speaking, a D major scale implies a D root.

The individual notes might be the same for C major and F Lydian, but the guiding harmonic principles are totally different.

The guiding harmonic principles is what I want to know for modes.

[Modeler]

But the above two-chord progression will sound quasi-modal

The bells! The bells!!!

[Melkor]

But the above two-chord progression will sound quasi-modal

The bells! The bells!!!

LMAO

Thanks jmeier for that clarification.