Physically Modeled Piano

[koolkeys]

By the way, I do disagree on the sympathetic resonance. I tried to describe in another post earlier one of the things I noticed, but will expand on it once I get home and play it for a bit.

One thing I think that may help is possibly not having an attitude of "we're better than others" on anything. Even if you really believe it, and regardless of whether it's true in any form, it comes across wrong for a new developer. I mean this sincerely.

I bet it would be difficult for me, you, or anyone else to describe exactly what makes a "real" piano sound, considering how many pianos there are out there.

Ok, for real now, off to get stuff done and I'll chime in a bit later.

Brent

Hi Brent,
I am sorry if my posts also seemed harsh. You gave me many good advices indeed and I sincerely accept them. I am looking forward to your result.

Ok, just got home, and I'll test it out with my gear here in a bit. Gotta get something to eat first.

Brent

[aMUSEd]

The "Warm" preset is not bad. The dynamic range is weak, at first look. Looking the files installed, i found three big ones with the extension ".wyc". Looking them with the hexeditor of the file manager, appear they are some kind of soundfonts or compiled wav files. There are two that appear are the pianos and one called "SynthResonredc" that appear that have the wave data of the Sympathethic resonance.
Im afraid that they would be more succesfully publishing their efforts as a sample library than using this VSTi format.

I believe that you are on to something. I did a little checking and this is a Synthmaker synth, not Synthedit and I was told that it IS using samples.

Well I'd guessed about the samples but on the KVR product page it definitely says Synthedit:

http://www.kvraudio.com/get/3877.html

maybe an error?

[koolkeys]

It's definitely SynthEdit. It creates the proper folder and a file for each SE module. So it's definitely NOT Synthmaker.

It's easy to get them confused these days though.

Brent

[aMUSEd]

I've just realised now that Shane has stepped in that this must be the same thing I did some beta testing for a month or 2 ago - only that was totally different to what we are seeing here. I gave a lot of feedback about the sound quality then (that I won't get into here) - never got a more recent RC version to test though so I didn't make the connection at first

[koolkeys]

I've just realised now that Shane has stepped in that this must be the same thing I did some beta testing for a month or 2 ago - only that was totally different to what we are seeing here. I gave a lot of feedback about the sound quality then (that I won't get into here) - never got a more recent RC version to test though so I didn't make the connection at first

Same here, only I didn't end up having the time to do much testing this past month. Too many things have just popped up.

Brent

[shane1980]

I've just realised now that Shane has stepped in that this must be the same thing I did some beta testing for a month or 2 ago - only that was totally different to what we are seeing here. I gave a lot of feedback about the sound quality then (that I won't get into here) - never got a more recent RC version to test though so I didn't make the connection at first

Hi aMUSEd
I remember you and you gave a lot feedback. I also send you a letter about new RC version but did not get reply. I though you might be too busy.

RC version changed a lot for all beta testers want to compare our piano with Truepianos and Pianoteq.

[aMUSEd]

I've just realised now that Shane has stepped in that this must be the same thing I did some beta testing for a month or 2 ago - only that was totally different to what we are seeing here. I gave a lot of feedback about the sound quality then (that I won't get into here) - never got a more recent RC version to test though so I didn't make the connection at first

Hi aMUSEd
I remember you and you gave a lot feedback. I also send you a letter about new RC version but did not get reply. I though you might be too busy.

No I didn't get it.

[presswerk]

In Pianoteq, you can hold notes down until they fade away, then continue holding them while they are silent. Then hit other notes on the keyboard and you will actually hear the strings from the original notes as they resonate and create new harmonics. THAT is sympathetic resonance.

This, and simply this alone, has made me seriously play again for hours at a time. I can sit there and listen to the sound of those strings interacting, something I could never get with anything else I'd tried. I'm a huge fan, I admit it proudly. As a synthesist, I love programming new sounds in Pianoteq, because they always come up sounding like organic instruments being "prepared" rather than synthesized. And already I've designed my own pianos. Amazing plugin, really. And I'm still on version 2!!!

I did try this plugin, and I am sorry to say I did not get this feeling. I hit the high notes repeatedly and they sounded the same to me. I don't hear the magic that is in Pianoteq, I'm sorry. But I do encourage you to continue on this journey. Who knows, right?

Competition is good thing, and it keeps everyone on their toes!

[koolkeys]

Ok, I took quite a while to play around with this piano using a better setup.

First things first, and I want this to remain key in all of this post: it does NOT sound bad. As a matter of fact, it sounds pretty good in many areas. The tone itself isn't the problem. So I want to make that clear.

I personally found the low end to be much better than the high end. The low end COULD use some more "thunder", but it's not really that bad. The high end, however, can be a little problematic for me. It's very thin at times, and even with the right velocity curve, I found myself really feeling that the higher registers didn't have enough.

I understand that every note on the piano has it's own velocity response(in theory, remembering that it's more a physics and acoustics thing, but I digress). But I don't think this piano has it nailed. I actually don't think it's a good idea to try TOO hard to emulate this behavior. Why? Because it's so easy to get wrong. People who use sampled pianos and piano VSTi's aren't going to like that behavior as much because they aren't used to it. I say this as somebody who comes from a background of playing a real piano my entire playing life, to somebody who works heavily with many different sampled and modeled pianos. I love pianos, and I've used a large number of what is out there. I think that using your method with a little bit of comprimise may be a good thing.

The thing is, piano samples and plugins aren't a real piano(duh, right?). A real piano can get away with things that virtual ones can't. A real piano has the ability to cut through and reach the back of a church auditorium with even the lightest touch on the keys. It projects in all directions. A virtual piano doesn't have that luxury. Play a light passage on stage, and the back of the room may not hear it without closer speakers.

Which brings me to part of the problem on the higher registers. They need more body. They need SOMETHING to help them stand out, even with the lighter touch. Does this make sense? I can try again at explaining it after I get some sleep if it doesn't.

Next, the sympathetic resonance. I'm sorry, but I just don't think it's right. I can hear what I think is SUPPOSED to be the resonance, but it's actually kind of distracting. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the resonance on your piano is created when you have the pedal down and hit some keys, right? I ask this because with the pedal down, even on lighter passages, I can hear a low end rumble/resonation sound. Hit a note with the pedal up, no sound. This MAY have something to do with the problem in the higher end, in that it's creating a sort of noise floor that just isn't realistic for higher notes. It's like every string on the keyboard is resonating every time you hit a note. It's not horribly bad, but just different than what I would expect with sympathetic resonance.

Also, there is some realistic behavior missing in this area. In Pianoteq(I use this as an example because I think they have done a great job at it), if you hold some notes down long enough for them to entirely fade out, but keep holding the notes down; then hit some notes elsewhere on the keyboard(staccato works best), you'll hear the strings resonate from the notes you are holding down. Not all the strings, but the ones you are holding down. This doesn't do that. All I can hear is that low rumble, every string is vibrating type of sound. But nothing dynamic.

Next, something is off on the velocity response when hitting notes in rapid succession. Hitting with the same velocity repeatedly will result in a wide range of velocities being played. Is this intended? Maybe I'm missing something here?

About the notes dropping out, it still happens. I can hit notes in the lower register(since they are audible longer, it's more evident there), and after a few seconds, they instantly cut off. It's not a performance issue. But something is making it do that for many people. I've tried in multiple hosts and the same thing happens.

Also, when playing more detailed passages, it seems that notes will sometimes just randomly stop, like there is some voice stealing going on. Is there a polyphony set behind the scenes? It's not something I can repeat on command, but it just happens while playing, and it's noticeable.

The method of changing volume really isn't a volume control. I tried adjusting the ceiling settings, and it makes no difference in sound. I think there just needs to be a volume control, made for that purpose, that you can turn up or down.

I played this for quite a while, as I mentioned above. I can share more thoughts later, but I need to be back at work in three hours! So I'll try to wrap it up by saying that this plugin definitely isn't horrible. Not even bad. As a matter of fact, it's a good plugin. It's fun to play, though it does lack that special character that makes you feel as if you're actually sitting in front of the piano. That can be due to a combination of issues, including those mentioned above. But I just feel that it could be better. It lacks that "magic" touch, and it's a hard thing to conquer. I think you are definitely on the right path though, so I'll be interested to see if you can get it to that goal over time.

The tone is good, the CPU usage is excellent(surprisingly good for an SE plugin). It is lower than Pianoteq, though I think Pianoteq really has more going on under the hood and has many more factors, including it's effect section, so it's hard to say. I didn't have time to do extensive testing. Suffice it to say, the CPU performance is great.

There is no way I would say that this plugin is better than Pianoteq or TP. It has it's own character, and with some tuning, could be a pretty good plugin and worth considering. Just as Pianoteq and TP have their own character and they are very good plugins, depending on the sound needs of the user. I use a combination of pianos all over the place. You can't ever have just one, or two, or ten, IMO!

The price may or may not be too high. I think there needs to be more control over the sound, or the other models really need to sound different. I haven't played the other models, and probably won't get the chance to since I can't afford another piano plugin right now. Maybe some day I will be able to try the other models and will like them. Who knows, maybe some of the issues are just related to this demo model even. But if there is the possibility of exposing any of the actual modeling, you will instantly add value to the package.

Another word of advice similar to what I already said in another post. It's probably not a great idea to be TOO confident that your product accomplishes things that other plugins and libraries "fail" at. Part of this is because I really don't think they have failed at those things. Another part is that pianos and libraries of all types have their place. There is no be-all, end-all of pianos, period. And you don't want to come across as being cocky and making claims that are partially subjective anyways. Just let the plugin stand for itself. Let it's features, demo, and user testimonials(if you have any yet, I don't know) do the talking. No need to trash other plugins or libraries. If your product is a good one, people will see that. If they feel you have to resort to saying that your competitors have failed, that seems desperate. At least I think it does.

So I say all this just to help. I will test specific things if you need me to, and I'm willing to give feedback. For now, all I can do is test while the demo lets me. So until I can afford to look at more pianos, that will be my limit!

I hope this post helps. I'm very tired and need to get to sleep, so I'm sure that much of this post runs together or doesn't make sense. I can clarify later if needed.

Brent

[aMUSEd]

In Pianoteq, you can hold notes down until they fade away, then continue holding them while they are silent. Then hit other notes on the keyboard and you will actually hear the strings from the original notes as they resonate and create new harmonics. THAT is sympathetic resonance.

This, and simply this alone, has made me seriously play again for hours at a time. I can sit there and listen to the sound of those strings interacting, something I could never get with anything else I'd tried. I'm a huge fan, I admit it proudly. As a synthesist, I love programming new sounds in Pianoteq, because they always come up sounding like organic instruments being "prepared" rather than synthesized. And already I've designed my own pianos. Amazing plugin, really. And I'm still on version 2!!!

Agreed - I have done the same. But why are you still on version 2 when 3 is a free upgrade? Version 3 is just so much better in every respect (the bottom end in particular is much better - so much so I find myself lowering my keyboard to get some really low, woody, thundery, resonant notes)

[marce]

I have been looking a little more the thing.
It's based in samples, and if you are serious about the stuff, would be nice to know what real pianos do you sampled.

In the folder Synthedit create there are three .wyc files.
The first one "redc1.wyc" is the pedal off samples.
"redc2.wyc" is the pedal down ones.
And the "SynthResonredc.wyc" is the soundfont for the sympathethic resonance.

Just rename the extension of them, load the plugin, and you will hear how that file sound alone. Rename the two "redcx.wyc" files and you will hear the sympathethic soundfont, and you will be able to try it alone.
It sound a little strange to me, like an sinus wave-organ pad at low volume.

I have the impression that using that three soundfonts in sfz or kontakt with some programming you will have the same results.

[ZergFood]

So this is SAMPLES?
Why else wouldn't you be able to change "physical properties"?

[koolkeys]

I noticed another little issue. When turning the velocity floor all the way down, and then hitting notes at the lowest velocities, there is a slapback effect, almost like two different notes/samples are being triggered.

Can anyone else confirm this?

Brent

[shane1980]

I noticed another little issue. When turning the velocity floor all the way down, and then hitting notes at the lowest velocities, there is a slapback effect, almost like two different notes/samples are being triggered.

Can anyone else confirm this?

Brent

Hi Brent
i confirm this issue exists

[shane1980]

One thing to clarify
Supreme Pianos combines a series groundbreaking technologies to reproduces an authentic piano sound. It did NOT USE SAMPLES but Harmony Rendering Engine to produce sound and Multi-Dimension Vector Synthesis to do physical modeling