Minor i to Major IV progression?

[NewSc2]

Been transposing Progressive/Electro House and video game songs and came across this progression a few times. Excuse me for being a sorta noob, but the major IV chord doesn't fit with a minor key.

My first thought was "melodic minor", so for example the IV of the C natural minor chord would be F-A-C without the Ab coming into play, but a couple songs I heard used something along the lines of the following:

C minor - Ab Major - Bb Major - F major

And this link cued me in on shifting the tonal key from C minor to C major:
http://cruiseelroy.net/2008/03/kondo-cadence/


How can they do that? It sounds right, so it is right, but why is it okay to bend the scale? Does this have anything to do with the classical ascending/descending minor scales?

Are there any general guidelines for going into a major chord (when it isn't called for)?

[TristezaOrange]

Why not bend the scale? Google "chromaticism"

[Mans]

Are there any general guidelines for going into a major chord (when it isn't called for)?

There is only one guideline and you said it yourself already.

[geroyannis]

My first thought was "melodic minor", so for example the IV of the C natural minor chord would be F-A-C without the Ab coming into play, but a couple songs I heard used something along the lines of the following:

C minor - Ab Major - Bb Major - F major

I suggest you should read about the subject of "modal interchange".
The above example looks like it's in C minor but the last chord (F major) is borrowed from C Dorian.

Actually a vamp like Cm-F is very common and characteristic of the C Dorian mode.

[NewSc2]

My first thought was "melodic minor", so for example the IV of the C natural minor chord would be F-A-C without the Ab coming into play, but a couple songs I heard used something along the lines of the following:

C minor - Ab Major - Bb Major - F major

I suggest you should read about the subject of "modal interchange".
The above example looks like it's in C minor but the last chord (F major) is borrowed from C Dorian.

Actually a vamp like Cm-F is very common and characteristic of the C Dorian mode.

But the Ab major and Bb major aren't part of C Dorian?

EDIT: nm, reading up on modal interchange now

[geroyannis]

But the Ab major and Bb major aren't part of C Dorian?

No. Cm, Ab and Bb come from C Aeolian while F comes from C Dorian.

[trewq]

Hi,

Its very common to borrow a chord from the 5th scale of the same type. FM chord is from the G natural minor. The other chords are in C natural minor.

The G natural minor shares 2 chords in that sequence with C natural minor, and they also share 6 notes.

[TristezaOrange]

I always like to borrow chords from other scales/modes or use altered chords and stuff. That's what makes music fun and emotional. You should experiment with this stuff yourself!

[geroyannis]

Hi,

Its very common to borrow a chord from the 5th scale of the same type. FM chord is from the G natural minor. The other chords are in C natural minor.

The G natural minor shares 2 chords in that sequence with C natural minor, and they also share 6 notes.

Yes. G minor, C Dorian, same chords really. I just find it more helpful to think of scales in parallel, meaning functions of C minor compared to functions of C Dorian, to C Phrygian, etc.

[jancivil]

My first thought was "melodic minor", so for example the IV of the C natural minor chord would be F-A-C without the Ab coming into play, but a couple songs I heard used something along the lines of the following:

C minor - Ab Major - Bb Major - F major

Actually a vamp like Cm-F is very common and characteristic of the C Dorian mode.

AKA the Carlos Santana Secret Chord Progression.

the idea of the progression

C minor - Ab Major - Bb Major - F major

is:

"we're going to IV, IV is a good place to go".
Bb to F, 'plagal'{Falling fourth}, like the amen cadence, IV to I. That's a double plagal move. You get it in gospel music a lot, so, you get it in rock sort of musics. Ab maj is the relative (major) of where you started (minor) and has some drama.

So, it 'isn't minor' in a 19th century analysis of function, it has a different function. Don't worry about it.

[NewSc2]

My first thought was "melodic minor", so for example the IV of the C natural minor chord would be F-A-C without the Ab coming into play, but a couple songs I heard used something along the lines of the following:

C minor - Ab Major - Bb Major - F major

Actually a vamp like Cm-F is very common and characteristic of the C Dorian mode.

AKA the Carlos Santana Secret Chord Progression.

the idea of the progression

C minor - Ab Major - Bb Major - F major

is:

"we're going to IV, IV is a good place to go".
Bb to F, 'plagal'{Falling fourth}, like the amen cadence, IV to I. That's a double plagal move. You get it in gospel music a lot, so, you get it in rock sort of musics. Ab maj is the relative (major) of where you started (minor) and has some drama.

So, it 'isn't minor' in a 19th century analysis of function, it has a different function. Don't worry about it.

My point wasn't really the Bb Major to F major plagal cadence. I've seen that same progression go C min - Bb Major - Ab Major - F major too (among many other variants). I also don't have a problem with progressions like C min - Bb Major - Ab Major (also very common) -- I use the i, VI, VII chords in my songs quite often, and like you said -- they're in the same relative key.

It's when I start to see G major and F major chords in songs in the key of C minor that give me pause. It's sort of like throwing in a V dominant 7th into a major scale, but that specifically sounds so natural. I'm not sure where I could/should be substituting these other modal interchanges without sounding off.

Thanks for all the suggestions so far -- I haven't had access to a piano since I posted the thread, so I have a lot of analyzing to do later tonight.

P.S. Sorry about all the relative/harmonic/natural minor naming. I grew up learning classical piano, so I still need to physically look up the modes to reference each one.

[jancivil]

if you have IV and V, caps indicating major triads, in minor ("F, G, Cmin"), that, in common practice period 'classical' music is as normal as anything.

In history, first you started to get "G - Cmin", rather than both being minor (as in the pure mode), due to a preference for the leading tone of the B to the tonic C. (stronger voice leading: we're talking about a vocal music here, and melodic lines, not chords per se) Only problem, is that the interval Ab to B was frowned upon by the religious authorities (not kiddding), and was just not done. So, the line would have to avoid this no-no some kind of way. Finally you get the 'melodic minor' scale, on C, ascending: C D Eb F G A B; which tended to descend: Bb Ab G F Eb D C.

So, if you get to the point of constructing tertial harmonies, by thirds, given these tones, now you have a wider palette to choose from. (The Bb F Cm move would have been rare to nonexistent for some time owing to the fact they weren't 'doing chord progressions' but harmonizing lines, and descending form (containing the Ab) versus ascending form (where you would get the raised form) so that you wouldn't see that Bb to A natural move; that dorian sort of thing, that wasn't the style at all... by now we're in an area strongly reacting against these sort of pure, aka Inauthentic modes. There were rules, and they were enforced.)

[trewq]

Hi,

Its very common to borrow a chord from the 5th scale of the same type. FM chord is from the G natural minor. The other chords are in C natural minor.

The G natural minor shares 2 chords in that sequence with C natural minor, and they also share 6 notes.

Yes. G minor, C Dorian, same chords really. I just find it more helpful to think of scales in parallel, meaning functions of C minor compared to functions of C Dorian, to C Phrygian, etc.

Why do you find it more helpful? {EDIT}-What do you mean by functions?

Just wondering if maybe I should include doing it that way.

[trewq]

Hi,

Its very common to borrow a chord from the 5th scale of the same type. FM chord is from the G natural minor. The other chords are in C natural minor.

The G natural minor shares 2 chords in that sequence with C natural minor, and they also share 6 notes.

Yes. G minor, C Dorian, same chords really. I just find it more helpful to think of scales in parallel, meaning functions of C minor compared to functions of C Dorian, to C Phrygian, etc.

Why do you find it more helpful? {EDIT}-What do you mean by functions?

Just wondering if maybe I should include doing it that way.

Never mind, I guess I've got no business talking about theory when I end up talking about my software! I try not to though, and I'm always learning .

But I've been thinking about making the modes more visible, as a reference, since mode names are so common. At this point, mode theory is only used in the code for any chord/scale interchanges, because it became necessary to list only the parent scales. I think that really simplifies things in the end. But it doesn't attract much attention though!

I'm sure that keeping the tonics the same note as the key and using the modes for diatonic interchanges can help.(I've been more into the circle of 5ths). Its not useful, however, for interchanges among the altered scales, except in code.

[jplanet]

Been transposing Progressive/Electro House and video game songs and came across this progression a few times. Excuse me for being a sorta noob, but the major IV chord doesn't fit with a minor key.

My first thought was "melodic minor", so for example the IV of the C natural minor chord would be F-A-C without the Ab coming into play, but a couple songs I heard used something along the lines of the following:

C minor - Ab Major - Bb Major - F major

And this link cued me in on shifting the tonal key from C minor to C major:
http://cruiseelroy.net/2008/03/kondo-cadence/


How can they do that? It sounds right, so it is right, but why is it okay to bend the scale? Does this have anything to do with the classical ascending/descending minor scales?

Are there any general guidelines for going into a major chord (when it isn't called for)?

Not all chord progressions are diatonic, I think that is what is striking you as odd about this progression. The "other" type of chord progression is one that keeps the same chord type (whether it's major or minor), and the root notes are what belong to a common scale. So, in this case, the root scale might be F minor. (My reference is William Russo's "Composing Music" book).

I think that this type of progression surfaces more frequently in electronic music as it occurs by default when using a MIDI editor to compose, or when chords are triggered as stacked notes tuned to a chord (supersaw-type patches, for example) by playing monophonically. But even classical composers use this as well...