Record: New DAW from Propellerheads

[koolkeys]

Does Reason have anything to compete with Stylus RMX, Omnisphere, Zebra, etc.?

Most of the sounds can be recreated with Thor at least relatively close. Not a big deal for me, I dont use romplers which sounds is overused mostly anyway.

Ummm, wrong. Thor can't come close to recreating the sounds of even one of those. And none of them are romplers. Zebra doesn't even have any samples except waveforms. Zebra alone is more powerful than every synth in Reason. The sounds aren't overused in these either. There are a LOT of sounds available, with infinite possibilities for more. You apparently haven't even used them, or you would know.

They arent limited. You forgetting about endless routing possibilities again. How about Thor/Malstrom oscs going to Scream (pick some more effects for your taste), then another thor with filters. Or how about raw oscs samples from Virus TI in NN-XT, waveshaped with misc reason fxes and then going to Thor? If Reason oscs miss some sound palette (but only small amount), samples delivers it. Turn on your imagination really. I forgot what it is when I've used Cubase.

My imagination is there, but you are delusional if you think that Reason can create all sounds needed for all productions. And if you think the samples available for it match up to the libraries available for something like Kontakt, you are fooling yourself. I don't care how you route it, there are plenty of sounds that you can't get in Reason. Again, I'm not saying it's not powerful. Just not ALL powerful.

There is no very high quality reverb that competes with Altiverb and Breverb and others, for instance.

You really will hear the difference in the final mix? Nope, you don't.

Yes, you do. You absolutely can hear the difference. You have apparently never used either of the above tools and done comparisons. Reason's reverb is not at the higher qualities of those tools are others.

Reason is a modular. Lack flexibility, huh? Think out of your vst box.

Reason is more limited than most every host out there. Not only because you are restricted to the devices it includes, but because the tools that ARE there are not nearly as advanced as some tools that are available elsewhere. I assure you, in my "VST world", I'm not limited by any means. I can do WHATEVER I want, and I'm free to use any tool I want.

Ears helps a lot.

Of course they do. But there are plenty of times where visualizations come in handy and can let you see things that are more difficult to hear.

no noise reduction

Pfff. Never used it. There are better tools for vinyl, tapes restorations. You can use gates and filters in reason tho.

You think gates and filters can do the same as proper noise reduction? No way. And just because you never used it, doesn't mean it's not essential to many recordings. You've apparently never had a bad recording from somebody who brought in their noisy gear, or you've never had to edit acoustic samples you've recorded, or done any of the other dozens of reasons why noise reduction is used. And my point is, Reason doesn't do it in any way.

Finetune in sampler. Yeah, you right tho, you dont have all those sound analysers like in melodyne, which do everything for you.

See, once again you assume how a certain tool is used and then make a condescending statement about that tool. This proves that you do NOT understand.

First of all, the fine tuning in a sampler is not what I'm talking about. It doesn't allow you to adjust formants. It doesn't allow you to tune an entire line visually. Think these tools are useful? Well, if you're making electronic music with synths only, it's not useful. But in the REAL world, where even acoustic instruments go out of tun for a second in the middle of a long note, or where a vocalist line isn't quite what you wanted and the vocalist is gone, these things are essential. They aren't "doing everything for you". They are making recordings BETTER, and they are used everywhere, in all genres(not just for vocals, and I'm not talking about the robot Cher effect vocals).

spectral management

see upper

Not the same thing. This isn't about using your ears. It has nothing to do with monitoring.

Umm, sorry? You cant shape finished sounds effectively with filters, compressors, eq's, and stereo imager so they'll fit perfectly in the mix?

Is THAT what you think editing is? Those have nothing to do with audio editing. Those are effects.


(post continued below)

[koolkeys]

has no groove quantize

You really have seen last Reason version, huh?

You apparently don't know what groove quantize is. I assure you, the latest version of Reason does not have this.

no way of pocketing tracks(which is done on almost every commercial release these days)

Pocketing tracks?

Yes, a task that is done on 90% of every major release out there. And it has everything to do with sound. But without proper clip management and editing, you need extreme workarounds to do this.

no way to tame clipping

Now i'm absolutely sure that you havent seen Reason 4. Even 3.

Oh, you mean that Reason lets you go in and remove clips manually from an audio file? Oh wait, you can't. Even in Record. Once again, you apparently aren't thinking of the same thing as I am. Quote my words in context. I'm talking about audio editing, and I assure you, Reason 4 does not let you do this.

do anything else that requires sample level editing, etc. It goes on and on. No advanced crossfading, no nothing. VERY limited. These are things that DO affect sound and the quality of the recordings.

Now thats funny.

Humor me. The crossfading in Record is BASIC. You apparently haven't seen what can be done in most every other host out there.

I'm making EDM, ambient and orchestral music.

Oh, I'm waiting to see what samples that are available for Reason that anywhere NEAR match up to VSL, EWQLSO, Kirk Hunter, and others. It's laughable if you think they do. No offense, honestly. I know that everyone makes music differently, and you may be getting exactly the sound you want. But Reason alone will never be used for a mainstream orchestral track, or movie score, or whatever. It's sampler doesn't even offer the abilities that are NEEDED to create realistic, full-on orchestral arrangements.

I dont saying that it does have all features that Cubase have. But I do pretend that you can make the track in electronic styles with any level of complexity there with huge amount of available sound palette in the synthesis world and have top-notch pro sound in the end.

I never said you can't make SOME styles of music with good quality in Reason. It DOES have a huge sound palette. I never said it didn't. But you are dismissing everything that Reason doesn't have as if nobody should need it. There are a lot of things that people use and NEED every day that Reason just can't do. Nothing wrong with that, and it doesn't mean reason is bad by any stretch. But to think that it can do all the things mentioned above is just pretending. It can't.

And the quality of sample libraries for Reason are nowhere near the quality of things like VSL, Chris Hein/Scarbee, EWQLSO, WIVI, and others.

I'm not talking about Reason libraries. And yes they're sucks, at least for my production needs. Thats why I almost never use them.

There aren't those types of libraries available for Reason, PERIOD. Not from third pary vendors either.

Just because you may not need those libraries, doesn't mean that others don't. You can't create the types of things that are created with those libraries by just using Reason. And that's my point. THAT is why not having VST is a restriction. And no amount of routing will ever make up for that.

I get it. YOU don't have needs that require more tools than Reason/Record gives you. Great. But for many, if not most people, Reason/Record is not sufficient on it's own.

I'm about done with the quoting back and forth though. Way too time consuming. It's clear that you just never needed the extra tools that are not in Reason, and there is nothing wrong with that. Others do need them, and others are being just as creative as anyone who use Reason. If you don't see that, then you aren't looking.

Good luck with Reason and Record. I mean that. If they allow you to make music you love and express yourself the way you want, I am absolutely nothing but happy for you, sincerely. They are good tools(well, at least Reason is, the jury is still out on Record), and there is nothing wrong with using them exclusively.

Brent

(a couple of things have been editing out or not replied to- stupid quotes- I got too frustrated fixing them and gave up- another reason why I think I'm done with the back and forth)

[jacqueslacouth]

gone

[headquest]

There is no very high quality reverb that competes with Altiverb and Breverb and others, for instance.

You really will hear the difference in the final mix? Nope, you don't.

Yes, you do. You absolutely can hear the difference.

Brent, I'm guessing that EITHER

1) He actually CAN hear the difference - hence spending a pile of money buying Sound Forge and Waves to polish the stuff he does "fully in the box" without outboard/etc...

OR 2) He actually can't hear the difference, which kinda raises the sorts of questions that can get a thread locked around these parts

Either way I'm guessing its just worth dropping.

[X-Soul]

Ummm, wrong. Thor can't come close to recreating the sounds of even one of those. And none of them are romplers. Zebra doesn't even have any samples except waveforms. Zebra alone is more powerful than every synth in Reason. The sounds aren't overused in these either. There are a LOT of sounds available, with infinite possibilities for more. You apparently haven't even used them, or you would know.

Stylus RMX - groove module with tons of loops. I cant beat it with some good external libs and selfmaded loops in Redrum, huh?
Omnisphere - partially rompler with its 40 gig samples library, which is bloated imo. Heard the demos - nothing original. Many sampled electronic sounds can be easily recreated with Thor, dont see the point in doing it tho.
Zebra is a great sounding synth, but I dont like its gui and filters.

Yes, you do. You absolutely can hear the difference. You have apparently never used either of the above tools and done comparisons. Reason's reverb is not at the higher qualities of those tools are others.

Are you talking about convolution reverbs only or any hi-quality reverbs?
If second, then please tell me which project was maded in Cubase with hi-quality fx'es, algorhitmic reverb and synths and which in Reason.
http://rghost.ru/363238

You think gates and filters can do the same as proper noise reduction? No way. And just because you never used it, doesn't mean it's not essential to many recordings. You've apparently never had a bad recording from somebody who brought in their noisy gear, or you've never had to edit acoustic samples you've recorded, or done any of the other dozens of reasons why noise reduction is used. And my point is, Reason doesn't do it in any way.

I've restored and remastered a lot of my tape records. And how do you think the noise reduction is working? Basically it filters the frequencies and triggers the gate in most quiet parts, no other way around.

Is THAT what you think editing is? Those have nothing to do with audio editing. Those are effects.

I'm not talking about audio editing, but spectral editing of the sound. Thats your words - spectral management and editing.

You apparently don't know what groove quantize is. I assure you, the latest version of Reason does not have this.

Umm, what? What is regroove for then?

Humor me. The crossfading in Record is BASIC. You apparently haven't seen what can be done in most every other host out there.

I know about different crossfades in Cubase, but I dont care. I rarely use audiotracks. And those which I use doesnt crossfades with each other.

Oh, I'm waiting to see what samples that are available for Reason that anywhere NEAR match up to VSL, EWQLSO, Kirk Hunter, and others. It's laughable if you think they do. No offense, honestly. I know that everyone makes music differently, and you may be getting exactly the sound you want. But Reason alone will never be used for a mainstream orchestral track, or movie score, or whatever. It's sampler doesn't even offer the abilities that are NEEDED to create realistic, full-on orchestral arrangements.

There's few refills available - Garritan Personal Orchestra, Miroslav Philarmonic, Sonic Reality Orchestra and Proteus 2 Orchestral.

1) He actually CAN hear the difference - hence spending a pile of money buying Sound Forge and Waves to polish the stuff he does "fully in the box" without outboard/etc...

OR 2) He actually can't hear the difference, which kinda raises the sorts of questions that can get a thread locked around these parts

We're talking about recognizing of reverb in the final mix. I can recognize the reverb quality in solo, but when tons of misc reverb types is playing in the track and mixes with each other its impossible, dont you think? I thought this is quite obvious for you guys.

[koolkeys]

Stylus RMX - groove module with tons of loops. I cant beat it with some good external libs and selfmaded loops in Redrum, huh?

You haven't used RMX then. If you think for a second that it's the same thing as Redrum, you are wrong. Redrum can't even begin to do all that RMX can do.

Omnisphere - partially rompler with its 40 gig samples library, which is bloated imo. Heard the demos - nothing original. Many sampled electronic sounds can be easily recreated with Thor, dont see the point in doing it tho.

So who gets to judge if it's bloated? I thought we were talking about Reason being able to do all sounds? Every time I mention something it can't do, you say that you don't need it. So we're not actually talking about what Reason can do any more, but what YOU need.

I am guessing you haven't used Omnisphere and seen the FULL FEATURED synth engine, as well as the thousands of available sound sources to load into the engine. Thor can't even BEGIN to recreate what Omnisphere can make. Nothing in Reason can.

Zebra is a great sounding synth, but I dont like its gui and filters.

So we've switched from "Reason has what you need to make all sounds", to "I just don't like that".

No synth in Reason can do what Zebra can do. And even if you could begin to create something using the routing, why would you want to connect ten devices together when you can just load up a single VST and have everything there AND integrated?

Yes, you do. You absolutely can hear the difference. You have apparently never used either of the above tools and done comparisons. Reason's reverb is not at the higher qualities of those tools are others.

Are you talking about convolution reverbs only or any hi-quality reverbs?
If second, then please tell me which project was maded in Cubase with hi-quality fx'es, algorhitmic reverb and synths and which in Reason.
http://rghost.ru/363238

I'm talking about both. First of all, Reason doesn't even have a convolution verb, and just can't compete with the spaces that Altiverb gives you. Second, show me the reverb in Reason that can match something like Breverb? I'm not just talking about sound either. I'm talking about flexibility and functionality.

You provided two audio files, but those are useless for any test. First of all, they aren't the same sounde source. Second, synth patches sometimes have effects built in. Not very good comparison material since it's hard to know what is reverb and what is synth.

There is a quality difference between the reverbs I mentioned and the Reason one. Depending on source material, it may be more evident or not. But it's there. When you get into hi-fi source material like acoustic sources, from a good drum set to symphony orchestra work, it's extremely evident. The sense of space and depth and smoothness is very obvious at those levels.

I've restored and remastered a lot of my tape records. And how do you think the noise reduction is working? Basically it filters the frequencies and triggers the gate in most quiet parts, no other way around.

No, it's not exactly like that. Have you seen the things that tools like iZotope RX can do? Have you seen adaptive noise reduction in Audition? It seems you are thinking on a very basic level of what noise reduction is and what it can do. Reason can't do the things those tools can do.

I'm not talking about audio editing, but spectral editing of the sound. Thats your words - spectral management and editing.

Oh, so Reason has a spectral editing screen? Where you can edit the frequency and time spectrum with sample level precision? Take a single dog bark from the background of a recorded audio file that you didn't hear when recording? No, it doesn't have this. And I've only scratched the surface of what spectral editing does.

You apparently don't know what groove quantize is. I assure you, the latest version of Reason does not have this.

Umm, what? What is regroove for then?

Regroove is a way of quantizing MIDI, and is at the BASIC level of what many other hosts can do. I'm talking about taking a recorded audio file, extracting the groove from it, and applying it to other audio and MIDI tracks. I'm talking about being able to directly edit each transient as well. These things go beyond what ReGroove can do.

Humor me. The crossfading in Record is BASIC. You apparently haven't seen what can be done in most every other host out there.

I know about different crossfades in Cubase, but I dont care. I rarely use audiotracks. And those which I use doesnt crossfades with each other.

So again, are we talking about Reason being able to do anything a person should need, or are we talking about what YOU need again? Crossfades are an essential part of tens of thousands or productions these days. If you are using MIDI synth parts only, then you won't understand. If you are recording live musicians and mixing tracks, and moving pieces around, slicing, adding effects to individual slices, doing any form of comping, etc. then crossfades start to come into play. Just because YOU don't care or don't use them, doesn't mean they aren't needed by thousands of others. Again, you were talking about Reason being able to do all that a person would need now that it has Record with it. It can't.

Oh, I'm waiting to see what samples that are available for Reason that anywhere NEAR match up to VSL, EWQLSO, Kirk Hunter, and others. It's laughable if you think they do. No offense, honestly. I know that everyone makes music differently, and you may be getting exactly the sound you want. But Reason alone will never be used for a mainstream orchestral track, or movie score, or whatever. It's sampler doesn't even offer the abilities that are NEEDED to create realistic, full-on orchestral arrangements.

There's few refills available - Garritan Personal Orchestra, Miroslav Philarmonic, Sonic Reality Orchestra and Proteus 2 Orchestral.

Those just don't match up. And I'm not just talking about sound quality of the recordings themselves. I'm talking about playability and how various articulations work together. The samplers in Reason don't even have the functionality needed that is used in full ochestral work these days. This is why people use tools like Kontakt. It puts the Reason samplers to shame. Not that the Reason samplers aren't usable. They are....for limited work. But regardless of how good samples SOUND, they are still restricted to what the sampler can do.

We're talking about recognizing of reverb in the final mix. I can recognize the reverb quality in solo, but when tons of misc reverb types is playing in the track and mixes with each other its impossible, dont you think? I thought this is quite obvious for you guys.

No, not impossible. If you are talking about synth tracks only, maybe. But using acoustic instruments, all the way up to and including orchestral work, it is VERY obvious when reverb quality isn't there. Yes, I can tell the difference and so do others.

Brent

[Meffy]

Good heavens.

http://xkcd.com/386/

?

[koolkeys]

Good heavens.

http://xkcd.com/386/

?

Ya know what, after the long day I've had, I refuse to do anything useful. At least until I get home and go to sleep.

So bring it on DAW fanboys.............

[Meffy]

That was kinda for everyone, in hopes folks don't get too caught up in things. Keyboards have finite lifespans, after all. :-}

[hibidy]

Good heavens.

http://xkcd.com/386/

?

Maybe that should be a sticky (yes, I'm a bad bad boy )

[nix808]

That's classic Meffy
Your reliable source for misinformation,

I think the Scream distorsion is a high quality effect
The advanced reverb is a bit hissy maybe?

[koolkeys]

That was kinda for everyone, in hopes folks don't get too caught up in things. Keyboards have finite lifespans, after all. :-}

I'm about to tame out. Just got home, and haven't eaten a single thing in almost 24 hours and my company has been pissing me off all night with red tape while trying to get a simple employment verification done so we can buy a freakin' house. But my TV dinner has only a few minutes left now, and pretty soon I'll be in over-processed boneless drumsticks and make-you-sick cheese fries heaven.

The BBQ sauce that comes with this dinner is to die for though, ya know?

Brent

[JediMind]

IBTL?

Seriosly, I don't care. Either a gazillion state-of-the-art instruments and effects or some pretty outdated and limited ones, my music is still shite.

So I kindly recommend to stop praising various reverbs and synths and start f***ing using them.

Thank you

[hibidy]

YEAH!



Um, what was the question again?

[koolkeys]

IBTL?

Seriosly, I don't care. Either a gazillion state-of-the-art instruments and effects or some pretty outdated and limited ones, my music is still shite.

So I kindly recommend to stop praising various reverbs and synths and start f***ing using them.

Thank you

I tried running your post through my favorite high quality reverb. But it said that it couldn't be unlocked until your signature was active. So I'm waiting for your -1 post.

So, I failed.

Brent