Thank god that there are perceptive people like you so that someone can make that distinction.blank/diod wrote: Are you honestly telling me you can't distinguish a pro-grade product from a beginner package because the feature set is limited (this is v 1.0, you know)? What do you go by, the number of blinking lights?
Because, you know, I thought that every DAW is the same between my drooling sessions.Garageband is used by professionals - I've seen interviews with Mike Oldfield and various others saying they used in in commercial releases, including the bundled loops!blank/diod wrote: Sequel?! Sequel is barely GarageBand territory, a tinker toy for beginners. I'm not seeing any SSL mixers there. Record is the big sister of Reason, Reason is used by thousands of professionals, Sequel is used by zero professionals.
I'm in the same boat (Cubase here). But as a long-time Reason user who loves the way Props went about that, its natural to have a good look at Record. There's no doubt Propellerhead want me and all their other Reason owners to buy this thing...TristezaOrange wrote: Unlike some people on KvR I am mostly satisfied with my host ...
Well Record has been created for "musicians", not "engineers", so presumably you are talking about professional "musicians", right? And presumably features like pitch and timing correction, audio editing, etc will never be added, because those are the things "engineers" use?blank/diod wrote:Are you honestly telling me you can't distinguish a pro-grade product from a beginner package because the feature set is limited (this is v 1.0, you know)?
Right, but that's why this discussion about pricing is so futile. Waves costs a fortune and GarageBand comes free with your Mac, that's just the way it is. There isn't some government commission that scrutinizes audio software and goes "OK, no VST in Record, that's a $49.68 reduction, and look, Logic has two more instruments than Cubase so now Steinberg must change their price to whatever Logic costs minus $30". I see this bickering over prices vs. specs on Mac forums every day, page after page of point-by-point comparisons between Macs and similary spec'ed PCs. Yes, I know I can get a PC with more for less. I also know that I can get a Peugeot or Citroën with tons of electric bells and whistles for much less than a very basic entry-level BMW, you only barely get a radio in that one. It's all very simple... sellers set their prices and buyers buy or don't buy. If companies aren't cutting their prices, it means there are plenty of people willing to pay the asking prices.headquest wrote:Garageband is used by professionals - I've seen interviews with Mike Oldfield and various others saying they used in in commercial releases, including the bundled loops!
Well, there are tons of users who have been using those apps only as audio recording drones to complement Reason. For them, the Rewire host is nothing more than an expensive burden, so I would assume that they know what they're losing/winning. I was always more of a ReWire guy myself, but some are just Reason crazy and wear Reason tattoos to prove it. No two users have the exact same approach, workflow, methods, favorite sounds etc, everyone values things differently. I dig Cubase, I like Logic but I don't get Live at all. I've tried every demo since version 1 and I'm still like, "WTF?" The interface is wrong for me in every possible way. Some will feel the same about Record, while others will feel it's a dream come true. There will never be an objective truth in this matter.I've seen people on the Props forum say they are selling Live 8, Cubase, Pro Tools, etc in order to buy this. I'd be amazed if they don't regret that decision.
They've had a dialogue with SSL. This is different from the Roland situation where there was no contact until after ReBirth was made public. But I'm not aware if SSL has had any input as such.* SSL are not giving Record their seal of approval (any more than Roland approved of ReBirth, for example)
Right, because that would involve license fees, which means a higher retail price for the end product. Seeing as some are already complaining about a modest $299, I wonder what they'd say about Waves pricing on Record. Hence the absence of original SSL algorithms in this product. And consequently they can't give it any kind of seal of approval, it wouldn't be fair to Waves or anyone else who has a partnership. On the other hand, if SSL didn't like the results they would probably protest the namedropping of SSL in the marketing.* SSL were not involved in supplying DSP algorithms, etc in any way. This is not a partnership (in the way that the Waves SSL plugs are).
It was made the way emulations are usually made by 3rd parties, like when IK Multimedia and NI do their guitar amp emulations. They analyze the hardware, both in terms of opening it up to see what's inside and by using spectral analysis, oscilloscopes etc to see how different components influence the sound. Then it's a matter of getting every curve identical. Naturally they did the same with the master bus compression - why would they just copy the looks? Don't you think they have any sort of ethics or pride? Don't you think they realize that any boastful claims will be the first to be scrutinized in reviews? The DSP designers have a background in hardware, both Pelle and Marcus worked at Clavia, and long before that Pelle worked in hardware repairs for a major distributor, and built stuff like vocoders in his spare time. He put the same effort into the mixer that he did into the timestretch algorithm. It's not a COMP-01 with an SSL-style interface slapped on it if that's what you think.* The effects in Record are Propellerhead 100%, SSL nil%
* when Propellerhead say "Yes, it includes THAT master bus compression" in their video, they're talking about the faux look, not the actual compression itself, correct?
If you say so... I barely know what an SSL9000K looks like, let alone what its features are.* A genuine SSL 9000K mixer actually includes Busses, correct? Record doesn't, correct?
Very true, and well put. Although the same argument applies to Sequel/Garageband/etc - so I personally think you are wrong to suggest that Record is a "pro-grade product" while they aren't.blank/diod wrote: Well, there are tons of users who have been using those apps only as audio recording drones to complement Reason. For them, the Rewire host is nothing more than an expensive burden, so I would assume that they know what they're losing/winning. I was always more of a ReWire guy myself, but some are just Reason crazy and wear Reason tattoos to prove it. No two users have the exact same approach, workflow, methods, favorite sounds etc, everyone values things differently. I dig Cubase, I like Logic but I don't get Live at all. I've tried every demo since version 1 and I'm still like, "WTF?" The interface is wrong for me in every possible way. Some will feel the same about Record, while others will feel it's a dream come true. There will never be an objective truth in this matter.
Cool! (re: getting rid of the flab).headquest wrote:Very true, and well put. Although the same argument applies to Sequel/Garageband/etc - so I personally think you are wrong to suggest that Record is a "pro-grade product" while they aren't.blank/diod wrote: Well, there are tons of users who have been using those apps only as audio recording drones to complement Reason. For them, the Rewire host is nothing more than an expensive burden, so I would assume that they know what they're losing/winning. I was always more of a ReWire guy myself, but some are just Reason crazy and wear Reason tattoos to prove it. No two users have the exact same approach, workflow, methods, favorite sounds etc, everyone values things differently. I dig Cubase, I like Logic but I don't get Live at all. I've tried every demo since version 1 and I'm still like, "WTF?" The interface is wrong for me in every possible way. Some will feel the same about Record, while others will feel it's a dream come true. There will never be an objective truth in this matter.
Anyways, thanks for the advice about getting rid of Record's extra flab - deleting the rewire and rex shared library dlls has done the trick - cheers
Any ideas about the PACE thing?
Yeah, their debug code isn't some surface-skimming contraption, it's a monster. Sure, performance sucks during beta testing, but the payoff is evident - stability is an area where Props are untouchable. Whereas most software companies don't have extensive debug code built in and base their bugfixes on crash reports, the so-called 'assert failures' produced by Props' debug code often wouldn't have resulted in crashes at all, they merely pick up hidden problems that would otherwise go unnoticed. They're constantly testing developer builds inhouse and reporting problems to the developers, and by the time users get their hands on the beta there are barely any bugs left. It's the Toyota way.Jeremy_NSL wrote:On the topic of performance - my CPU usage went down by 2/3rds with the non-debug code. Its a huge difference. And it doesn't sound like they are done optimizing yet. So its safe to say that Record will live up to the Prop's traditionally awesome performance. And the fact that it runs on all CPU cores now should mean massive projects are possible.
so you like record then?blank/diod wrote:But they don't offer similar functionality any more than Sequel and Live or Cubase offer similar functionality. Sequel is capped at 44.1 kHz, Record is not. Record's mixer is 64-bit, Sequel's is 32-bit. Sequel has a hardwired mixer with a basic 3-band EQ and a compressor with a single knob, Record has a full blown SSL-style 4-band EQ and dynamics processor on every channel. Sequel's routing flexibility is virtually non-existant, while in Record you can route anything to anything, Reason-style, till your head spins. Record has elastic audio with a kickass timestretch algorithm and swipe editing for multiple takes, Sequel has nothing of the sort. Sequel's output is limited to a single stereo pair, hardware-wise, Record can be routed to up to 64 hardware outputs (across multiple interfaces provided that your system and drivers can handle it, e.g. aggregate audio devices on OS X). Are you honestly telling me you can't distinguish a pro-grade product from a beginner package because the feature set is limited (this is v 1.0, you know)? What do you go by, the number of blinking lights?TristezaOrange wrote:If they offer similar functionality, why does it matter if Reason (and perhaps Record) are used by professionals?
That's only a part of it. Sure, third party stuff is the #1 reason for crashes (*ahem* Flash plugin *cough*), but there are plenty off apps that crash frequently without any third party involvement. Try Cubase with nothing but Steinberg's own instruments installed and you'll run into a crash eventually. And it's not just audio apps, but anything really. Flash (the design app, not the plugin) crashes quite often on both my Macs and my PCs, Photoshop crashes sometimes too. I challenge you to name anything as stable as Reason. Calculator.exe and Notepad.exe, maybe, but they're so simple there's basically nothing to crash.grymmjack wrote:props have stability because they are working in a completely controlled environment, with a closed system! add vst in, lets watch how stable it is.
Performance is much improved over beta. It still only uses 4 logical cores to any extent judging by the demos, but from an audio track perspective, the 'buffer' overheads will be hit before CPU usage based on track count alone.Jeremy_NSL wrote:On the topic of performance - my CPU usage went down by 2/3rds with the non-debug code. Its a huge difference. And it doesn't sound like they are done optimizing yet. So its safe to say that Record will live up to the Prop's traditionally awesome performance. And the fact that it runs on all CPU cores now should mean massive projects are possible.
Cinema4Dblank/diod wrote:I challenge you to name anything as stable as Reason.
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