Record: New DAW from Propellerheads

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blank/diod wrote:
Jeremy_NSL wrote:On the topic of performance - my CPU usage went down by 2/3rds with the non-debug code. Its a huge difference. And it doesn't sound like they are done optimizing yet. So its safe to say that Record will live up to the Prop's traditionally awesome performance. And the fact that it runs on all CPU cores now should mean massive projects are possible.
Yeah, their debug code isn't some surface-skimming contraption, it's a monster. Sure, performance sucks during beta testing, but the payoff is evident - stability is an area where Props are untouchable. Whereas most software companies don't have extensive debug code built in and base their bugfixes on crash reports, the so-called 'assert failures' produced by Props' debug code often wouldn't have resulted in crashes at all, they merely pick up hidden problems that would otherwise go unnoticed. They're constantly testing developer builds inhouse and reporting problems to the developers, and by the time users get their hands on the beta there are barely any bugs left. It's the Toyota way. ;)
I would say its a pretty safe bet that *all* vendors use Assertions for debug builds. Its part of the ANSI c++ standard, so its not anything fancy that the props invented or anything. I can say that I know from experience that 2 of the "big" vendors use Asserts.(aside from the props)

All the assert does is evaluate the code state to make sure that a condition that the developer *thinks* should be true is actually true. if this fails, then the assert fails and they put the code in place to fire a message box with any pertinent info. Like you said, it doesn't mean a crash would happen.

The propellerheads choice of a closed architecture is what I would consider 100% responsible for the reliability of the code(being good devs is a piece of that too though). If there is one thing that becomes evident when you start writing code for VST/AU/Direct X or whatever, SDKs are sometimes very poorly documented, and each host supports the functionality in slightly different ways(a million ways to skin a cat and all). Its a design decision that seems to work for them, and Reason is probably one of the most stable apps around. I would bet that is their main reason for not supporting vst. Honestly Im surprised that they have not adopted their own Low Latency I/O standards since ASIO is a steinberg technology as well.

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Stupid American Pig wrote:I would say its a pretty safe bet that *all* vendors use Assertions for debug builds. Its part of the ANSI c++ standard, so its not anything fancy that the props invented or anything. I can say that I know from experience that 2 of the "big" vendors use Asserts.(aside from the props)
Maybe, but not all vendors use debug builds for beta testing. I tested two different apps from another vendor for several years and I never saw any trace of a debug build. We just kept getting new release builds until there was one that we didn't complain too much about.

It's funny hearing about VST plugins as a problem source, though, since whenever the stability argument is brought up as a reason for Props not supporting them, we're usually told that this is an utterly ridiculous non-argument and that VST plugins and their hosts are super stable... but when the stability of their apps is commended it's suddenly only because they don't support VST. Damned if you do...

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I rather have a couple of Flat Tires on my Lamborghini (VST's) then travel on a FIAT (Reason) :D
Stability.... :nutter:
Reason user from 2.5.
ABEFLGMOPPRRST :phones:

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I think that all software vendors should aspire to bring out products as stable as Reason - its awesome in this area.

Having said that, I find that a pencil and manuscript paper are also very stable when I compose with them.

Stability is important, but its not everything. Surely we need stability PLUS features, not a stability that depends on an imposed LACK of features.

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well debug builds are a fact of life for any reputable shop, it may just depend on how "beta" of a beta tester you are. As for reliability, anytime you allow untested code into a system there is much greater chance of bugs. I personally would rather take a slight risk of a crash over a non expandable system. some people may demand the reliability of a closed system that has a 5 year development cycle between versions. Thats fine, and I think the ideal solution is probably a compromise of the 2 approaches. Im not arguing with you b/d either, I really couldn't live with out reason(but will have to pass on record). I think its great that the props have done this. maybe they will prove me wrong about code stability 1 day and add vst support. ;)

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Stupid American Pig wrote:well debug builds are a fact of life for any reputable shop, it may just depend on how "beta" of a beta tester you are.
I was in a group of 50 or so resident testers within the closest circle outside the company itself, so if there were debug builds they were only used inhouse.
As for reliability, anytime you allow untested code into a system there is much greater chance of bugs.
Yes. In an ideal world everyone would just comply with the SDKs, but unfortunately it seems that any 3rd party hooks is like leaving the henhouse door open for the foxes. The two main sources for Reason-related crashes are crappy ASIO drivers and Rewire, the only two doggy doors where 3rd parties can get inside...
I personally would rather take a slight risk of a crash over a non expandable system.
Personally I prefer spreading the risk, so that I have one go-to place for uncompromised stability (Reason) and another for when I'm feeling lucky (Cubase) and don't have a tight deadline breathing down my neck. Seeing as all other hosts have VST/AU support, I don't see the point of chasing Reason/Record into a corner and demanding surrender at gunpoint when there are dozens of alternatives.
some people may demand the reliability of a closed system that has a 5 year development cycle between versions.
Har-de-har. ;) There were five major Reason releases between November 2000 and September 2007... I think that's just under 7 years, not 25. An average of 17 months between versions is pretty close to the 18-month development cycle that a lot of vendors swear by. They're up to 22 months for the time being, granted, but there was this little thing called Record...
Thats fine, and I think the ideal solution is probably a compromise of the 2 approaches. Im not arguing with you b/d either, I really couldn't live with out reason(but will have to pass on record). I think its great that the props have done this. maybe they will prove me wrong about code stability 1 day and add vst support. ;)
Oh, if they held out for this long I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for VST support. :hihi:

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wow 1 GB app??? does it includes the original reason refills in the app package or what?
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Muzik 4 Machines wrote:wow 1 GB app??? does it includes the original reason refills in the app package or what?
Don't know about the PC version, but looking at the resources inside the Record app on the Mac (772 MB), 300+ MB are ID8 samples, 300+ MB are the RPCP (all the device resources like UI graphics), 30 MB are the Authorizer... Record itself ≈40 MB. The included demo song is 235 MB.

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that's what i just seen when i opened the package, looks nice, but damn on my 1440x900 15 inch MBP it looks so cluttered, ca't wait to plug my 21 inch and separate those 3 windows
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Just did a quick Record RC4 vs Reason 4.01 resources consumption comparsion.

Was compared on my older pc (P4 1.5 Ghz, 512 mb of RAM, Audigy 2ZS), so just be sure in more exact results. Record SSL mixer is much more cpu consuming (with all fx'es disabled) than Reason 14:2 Remix (Mixer 14:2 busy with all Redrum chans playing - 7-10%, 14 SSL channels in Record - 18-21%, Cubase SX 3 28 mono rewire chans with Reason rewired - 15-21%). Probably because of new 64-bit summing engine. And it goes higher all the time when you add new channel. Almost three times more memory consumption than in Reason 4 (rebooted XP sp3, empty rack: Reason - 133 mb, Record - 338 mb, Cubase SX 3 with Reason rewired - 221 mb). Apart from that theres no more difference. Synths, Reason fx'es eats the same amount of cpu as in Reason (if used with native ReMix of course).

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blank/diod wrote:The included demo song is 235 MB.
Demo songs folder is 444 mb large. ;) Plus Documentation folder is 222 mb big.

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blank/diod wrote:
grymmjack wrote:props have stability because they are working in a completely controlled environment, with a closed system! add vst in, lets watch how stable it is.
That's only a part of it. Sure, third party stuff is the #1 reason for crashes (*ahem* Flash plugin *cough*), but there are plenty off apps that crash frequently without any third party involvement. Try Cubase with nothing but Steinberg's own instruments installed and you'll run into a crash eventually. And it's not just audio apps, but anything really. Flash (the design app, not the plugin) crashes quite often on both my Macs and my PCs, Photoshop crashes sometimes too. I challenge you to name anything as stable as Reason. Calculator.exe and Notepad.exe, maybe, but they're so simple there's basically nothing to crash.
altap salamander, blender, open office, opera, putty, ableton live (now), orion (latest public version), should i keep going?

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grymmjack wrote:altap salamander, blender, open office, opera, putty, ableton live (now), orion (latest public version), should i keep going?
In the 9 years I've used Reason (I started with alpha versions) I've never experienced a single crash in any release version. With a couple of versions I couldn't even get the beta to crash. Your idea of an application as stable as Reason is Ableton Live, because it's stable "now"? It's a VST host, it's no more stable than its weakest link. Try again. As for Opera, I haven't used it for 3-4 years but it crashed plenty back then. Salamander is a file manager, Putty is a telnet client, neither is anywhere near as complex as Reason. Blender and Open Office - if you say so, I haven't tried them. Orion - good, a comparable product. I haven't tried that one either, but if you've never seen a release version of Orion crash, it's in Reason's league. Personally I don't own any audio apps other than Reason+ReCycle that never crashed. WaveLab is stable now, provided I'm careful with plugins, but for several years it would sometimes quit randomly. Not just crash, but literally vanish without a trace for no apparent reason. Cubase I've used for 19 years on Atari, PC and Mac and I've yet to see an entirely crash free version, though it's gotten better over time (1.0 for Atari never ran without glitches for more than 15 minutes).

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X-Soul wrote:Just did a quick Record RC4 vs Reason 4.01 resources consumption comparsion.

Was compared on my older pc (P4 1.5 Ghz, 512 mb of RAM, Audigy 2ZS), so just be sure in more exact results. Record SSL mixer is much more cpu consuming (with all fx'es disabled) than Reason 14:2 Remix (Mixer 14:2 busy with all Redrum chans playing - 7-10%, 14 SSL channels in Record - 18-21%, Cubase SX 3 28 mono rewire chans with Reason rewired - 15-21%). Probably because of new 64-bit summing engine. And it goes higher all the time when you add new channel. Almost three times more memory consumption than in Reason 4 (rebooted XP sp3, empty rack: Reason - 133 mb, Record - 338 mb, Cubase SX 3 with Reason rewired - 221 mb). Apart from that theres no more difference. Synths, Reason fx'es eats the same amount of cpu as in Reason (if used with native ReMix of course).

Well considering Reason 4 in Record and Record itself is a Mulitcore App I think testing it on a P4 1.5Ghz with 512mb of Ram seems like a pretty pointless exercise really. :shrug:

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FaX wrote:
X-Soul wrote:Just did a quick Record RC4 vs Reason 4.01 resources consumption comparsion.

Was compared on my older pc (P4 1.5 Ghz, 512 mb of RAM, Audigy 2ZS), so just be sure in more exact results. Record SSL mixer is much more cpu consuming (with all fx'es disabled) than Reason 14:2 Remix (Mixer 14:2 busy with all Redrum chans playing - 7-10%, 14 SSL channels in Record - 18-21%, Cubase SX 3 28 mono rewire chans with Reason rewired - 15-21%). Probably because of new 64-bit summing engine. And it goes higher all the time when you add new channel. Almost three times more memory consumption than in Reason 4 (rebooted XP sp3, empty rack: Reason - 133 mb, Record - 338 mb, Cubase SX 3 with Reason rewired - 221 mb). Apart from that theres no more difference. Synths, Reason fx'es eats the same amount of cpu as in Reason (if used with native ReMix of course).

Well considering Reason 4 in Record and Record itself is a Mulitcore App I think testing it on a P4 1.5Ghz with 512mb of Ram seems like a pretty pointless exercise really. :shrug:
Well, it is below the minimum system requirements (2 GHz, 1 GB RAM), but I guess it establishes that Record is partially usable on, er, vintage PCs.

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