Im not getting this. If Im doing a melody in D Dorian or any other mode how do I work out which chords are compatible with it.
In the case of D Dorian is it just a case of using chords in the key of C major C Dm Em F G Am but with Dm being the 'home' chord.
This theory stuff is a real struggle for me, bought the Guitar Gimoire Scales and Modes book a while back and the bit that explains what comptible chords are completely loses me.
help!!
Ian
What Chords are compatible with D Dorian scale
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Chungas Revenge Chungas Revenge https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=75845
- KVRist
- 131 posts since 24 Jul, 2005
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- KVRist
- 144 posts since 3 Oct, 2006 from South Cack
You're on the right track...you have the chords right for that mode.Chungas Revenge wrote:Im not getting this. If Im doing a melody in D Dorian or any other mode how do I work out which chords are compatible with it.
In the case of D Dorian is it just a case of using chords in the key of C major C Dm Em F G Am but with Dm being the 'home' chord.
This theory stuff is a real struggle for me, bought the Guitar Gimoire Scales and Modes book a while back and the bit that explains what comptible chords are completely loses me.
help!!
Ian
This may be helpful (guitar page, but applies to any instrument that can play chords):
http://guitarsecrets.com/dorian_mode.htm
I am clearly a thread killer
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- KVRAF
- 6388 posts since 8 Jun, 2009
Yes, C Maj chords are fine, but...Chungas Revenge wrote:Im not getting this. If Im doing a melody in D Dorian or any other mode how do I work out which chords are compatible with it.
In the case of D Dorian is it just a case of using chords in the key of C major C Dm Em F G Am but with Dm being the 'home' chord.
This theory stuff is a real struggle for me, bought the Guitar Gimoire Scales and Modes book a while back and the bit that explains what comptible chords are completely loses me.
help!!
Ian
...modes are a real problem because they predate chordal harmony by a long, long time. Strictly speaking the point of D Dorian, E Phrygian and all that is to give you a scale from which to work on melodies that run with chords built on the home or final note - in this case a D on C Major scale.
The trouble with working with other chords from the C Major scale is that you will wind up with something in C Major rather than based on D Dorian, so the pull will be towards the C and not the D. You may find out that it's easier to just work in D min or shift between D Maj and D min if your melody is based on D being the home note.
I have yet to see a theory book explain the modern use of modes well. I've found it only makes sense if you go all the way back to the church modes and look at how music changed from there. A big help (in a funny kind of way) is the realisation that the church modes are all messed up compared with the original Greek modes from which they take their names because of a misunderstanding sometime in the 10th Century. You kind of stop taking them seriously from that point on.
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- KVRAF
- 3864 posts since 29 Feb, 2004
It's quite simple, actually.
As you noticed, D Dorian is made up of the same notes as C Ionian (Major), i.e. only white keys.
Taking this concept further, all chords exclusively consisting of "white keys" will be compatible with D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian, B Locrian and of course C Ionian.
If you need E Dorian for example simply transpose all notes two half steps up from D Dorian, scale as well as chord notes.
That should already give you mileage for years.
Nothing will stop you from adding other notes or chords that don't fit in the above scheme as long as they sound good, but to quantify this we would be knee deep in advanced theory, so this is best left to trial and error for now.
Have fun,
susiwong
As you noticed, D Dorian is made up of the same notes as C Ionian (Major), i.e. only white keys.
Taking this concept further, all chords exclusively consisting of "white keys" will be compatible with D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian, B Locrian and of course C Ionian.
If you need E Dorian for example simply transpose all notes two half steps up from D Dorian, scale as well as chord notes.
That should already give you mileage for years.
Nothing will stop you from adding other notes or chords that don't fit in the above scheme as long as they sound good, but to quantify this we would be knee deep in advanced theory, so this is best left to trial and error for now.
Have fun,
susiwong
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- KVRAF
- 3864 posts since 29 Feb, 2004
You're perfectly correct, no question.Gamma-UT wrote:
Yes, C Maj chords are fine, but...
...modes are a real problem because they predate chordal harmony by a long, long time. Strictly speaking the point of D Dorian, E Phrygian and all that is to give you a scale from which to work on melodies that run with chords built on the home or final note - in this case a D on C Major scale.
The trouble with working with other chords from the C Major scale is that you will wind up with something in C Major rather than based on D Dorian, so the pull will be towards the C and not the D. You may find out that it's easier to just work in D min or shift between D Maj and D min if your melody is based on D being the home note.
I have yet to see a theory book explain the modern use of modes well. I've found it only makes sense if you go all the way back to the church modes and look at how music changed from there. A big help (in a funny kind of way) is the realisation that the church modes are all messed up compared with the original Greek modes from which they take their names because of a misunderstanding sometime in the 10th Century. You kind of stop taking them seriously from that point on.
But given the beginner's nature of the original question those concepts might be way over the OP's head atm.
That's why I went for a kinda incomplete but hands-on explanation.
Ymmv,
susiwong
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- KVRAF
- 6388 posts since 8 Jun, 2009
I take your point, which is why I started off saying, yep, C Major chords, no problem.susiwong wrote:You're perfectly correct, no question.Gamma-UT wrote:
Yes, C Maj chords are fine, but...
...modes are a real problem because they predate chordal harmony by a long, long time. Strictly speaking the point of D Dorian, E Phrygian and all that is to give you a scale from which to work on melodies that run with chords built on the home or final note - in this case a D on C Major scale.
The trouble with working with other chords from the C Major scale is that you will wind up with something in C Major rather than based on D Dorian, so the pull will be towards the C and not the D. You may find out that it's easier to just work in D min or shift between D Maj and D min if your melody is based on D being the home note.
I have yet to see a theory book explain the modern use of modes well. I've found it only makes sense if you go all the way back to the church modes and look at how music changed from there. A big help (in a funny kind of way) is the realisation that the church modes are all messed up compared with the original Greek modes from which they take their names because of a misunderstanding sometime in the 10th Century. You kind of stop taking them seriously from that point on.
But given the beginner's nature of the original question those concepts might be way over the OP's head atm.
That's why I went for a kinda incomplete but hands-on explanation.
Ymmv,
susiwong
But I thought it might be worth pointing out some of the issues with modes (not least because I could sense someone was going to come in with the "it's way more complicated than that" answer so it all gets very rule-bound very quickly), so I got my retaliation in first.
I spent years wondering, "if all these modes are built on the same scale and you use the same notes, what's the point?" Once I looked at the early history of music - how drone notes (like the rich, fruity D on an open string) were important in folk tunes, as well as the church modes - that was when it all dropped into place.
Personally, I think music theory books should come with a health warning ("We're still working on it. Some of the stuff we just made up because we forgot how we got here") because some of their explanations are worse than hopeless.
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
no, not all C Major chords in whatever way you fancy 'em in C major will have a dorian character, not_at_all.
If you go D min 7 to G7, that tends so strongly to C, that it takes you out of Dorian into C major.
A B diminished at all, does the same thing, only worse.
IN the interest of education, here's the deal with modes: it's not about chords. It's about a mood, which is conveyed by the intervals compared to the tonic and to each other. Before you go confusing yourself with 7 chords, half of them not terrifically useful as Dorian, find out what Dorian means.
The character of Dorian is down to these things:
* It has a minor third, and a major second.
Compare these two notes, and compare them to the tonic. Play a D minor triad: D F A. Sing an E, the second. That I will call character 1: {E -> D. F -> E -> D}
* It has a minor seventh and a major sixth. This is parallel with the first character. Character 2:
Play the bass, the tonic D. Sing the A. Sing other notes near A and return to A. {B -> A. C -> B -> A}
The fourth and fifth from the tonic, G and A are "perfect"; these are stable resting points. The A is part of the tonic harmony; the G, 'IV' is like a new plateau.
For a real world example you would seem to know: Frank Zappa. He does a vamp he called the Carlos Santana Secret Chord Progression, which kind of just susses Dorian as far as chords: i - IV, which is to say, D minor to G.
The G contains that B natural, the major sixth from tonic, which along with the fact of minor 7, defines Dorian as opposed to Aeolian, aka natural minor.
ALSO SEE:
D minor to F to D minor.
D minor - C - Dm.
You start in with a lot of chords, you get away from a mode.
If you go D min 7 to G7, that tends so strongly to C, that it takes you out of Dorian into C major.
A B diminished at all, does the same thing, only worse.
IN the interest of education, here's the deal with modes: it's not about chords. It's about a mood, which is conveyed by the intervals compared to the tonic and to each other. Before you go confusing yourself with 7 chords, half of them not terrifically useful as Dorian, find out what Dorian means.
The character of Dorian is down to these things:
* It has a minor third, and a major second.
Compare these two notes, and compare them to the tonic. Play a D minor triad: D F A. Sing an E, the second. That I will call character 1: {E -> D. F -> E -> D}
* It has a minor seventh and a major sixth. This is parallel with the first character. Character 2:
Play the bass, the tonic D. Sing the A. Sing other notes near A and return to A. {B -> A. C -> B -> A}
The fourth and fifth from the tonic, G and A are "perfect"; these are stable resting points. The A is part of the tonic harmony; the G, 'IV' is like a new plateau.
For a real world example you would seem to know: Frank Zappa. He does a vamp he called the Carlos Santana Secret Chord Progression, which kind of just susses Dorian as far as chords: i - IV, which is to say, D minor to G.
The G contains that B natural, the major sixth from tonic, which along with the fact of minor 7, defines Dorian as opposed to Aeolian, aka natural minor.
ALSO SEE:
D minor to F to D minor.
D minor - C - Dm.
You start in with a lot of chords, you get away from a mode.
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Chungas Revenge Chungas Revenge https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=75845
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 131 posts since 24 Jul, 2005
Thanks everyone for the comments.
So for a theory simpleton the esiest way is to stick with chords from the relevant key i.e. for D Dorian just use chords from the D minor key.
It all seems so mysterious and cryptic especially jancivils post.
Jan, yes I am a FZ fan I will listen to the Secret Chord Progressions of Carlos Santana again. I wonder if FZ agonized for weeks / months / years over this stuff like it looks like I will be.
Ian
So for a theory simpleton the esiest way is to stick with chords from the relevant key i.e. for D Dorian just use chords from the D minor key.
It all seems so mysterious and cryptic especially jancivils post.
Jan, yes I am a FZ fan I will listen to the Secret Chord Progressions of Carlos Santana again. I wonder if FZ agonized for weeks / months / years over this stuff like it looks like I will be.
Ian
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
well, it depends what you mean by chords of D minor, since there are more than one form.
D minor per se contains a Bb, which is not in the dorian mode, so, no. Bb major is a chord of D minor, and won't work with dorian so well.
you could go with 'chords of A minor' better than 'chords of C'. Chords of D minor, no.
My point is that modal playing uses the simplest of means as far as decorating it with chords. It isn't based on chords.
Modal, is about the "One" chord, "I". it's not made for moving around to new places, but about Home.
to illustrate my point about the thing that can destroy a mode, 'function': simply do this:
Dm C Am Dm G7
Doesn't it want to go to C kinda bad? C isn't home. D minor is home. You've gone astray.
That progression is not what you want.
What you want is: Dm C Dm (F).
Or Dm G Dm G over and over again.
Dm F G Dm.
Dm C Dm.
Noodle around with the seven notes we are calling Dorian Mode over these changes, get to know that sound.
Seriously, I'm steering you right, learn abut intervals before you learn about chords. If what I wrote, all I did was talk about the intervals in the mode, is baffling, you're not ready to deal with 7 chords, it's too much information; you'll get swamped here in detail with no context
D minor per se contains a Bb, which is not in the dorian mode, so, no. Bb major is a chord of D minor, and won't work with dorian so well.
you could go with 'chords of A minor' better than 'chords of C'. Chords of D minor, no.
My point is that modal playing uses the simplest of means as far as decorating it with chords. It isn't based on chords.
Modal, is about the "One" chord, "I". it's not made for moving around to new places, but about Home.
to illustrate my point about the thing that can destroy a mode, 'function': simply do this:
Dm C Am Dm G7
Doesn't it want to go to C kinda bad? C isn't home. D minor is home. You've gone astray.
That progression is not what you want.
What you want is: Dm C Dm (F).
Or Dm G Dm G over and over again.
Dm F G Dm.
Dm C Dm.
Noodle around with the seven notes we are calling Dorian Mode over these changes, get to know that sound.
Seriously, I'm steering you right, learn abut intervals before you learn about chords. If what I wrote, all I did was talk about the intervals in the mode, is baffling, you're not ready to deal with 7 chords, it's too much information; you'll get swamped here in detail with no context
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- KVRAF
- 42529 posts since 21 Dec, 2005
That is "ok", but the videos are actually better, and they are funny as hell too!Chungas Revenge wrote: Guitar Gimoire Scales and Modes book
Anyways, another outlet that has some good stuff (though you have to weed through it) licklibrary http://www.licklibrary.com/. There is a free version if you want to do the signup.
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- KVRAF
- 42529 posts since 21 Dec, 2005
On a more technical note (get it, note......ba-dum-crash!) There are some common studies that will help in theory.
If you have not already done so, memorize the "circle of fifths/cycle of fourths" it's essential.
Then start understanding inversions, and why they are called that. This will help to understand maj/maj7th/min/min7th/etc. and why some things fit, and others don't.
Then, chord extentions (I think it's called many different things depending on geographic location?) where you are understanding 9ths/11ths/etc.
Those are 3 things I feel are pretty important in getting started to understand what chords to play over your melody of a d dorian scale imo.
If you have not already done so, memorize the "circle of fifths/cycle of fourths" it's essential.
Then start understanding inversions, and why they are called that. This will help to understand maj/maj7th/min/min7th/etc. and why some things fit, and others don't.
Then, chord extentions (I think it's called many different things depending on geographic location?) where you are understanding 9ths/11ths/etc.
Those are 3 things I feel are pretty important in getting started to understand what chords to play over your melody of a d dorian scale imo.
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
No. Not really.
A MODE does NOT go around a circle of fifths. It has naught to do with a circle of fifths. Chunga's has to know intervals. In Fact, that's ALL you have to know as far as theory to play modally. Somone in India who is a total master of Raga, modal playing, has no need for knowledge of a circle of fifths, it's IRRELEVANT to the topic.
The best advice right now, is for Chunga to LISTEN to The Carlos Santana Secret Chord Progression on Shut Up 'N Play Yer Guitar. Or something like it, The Torture Never Stops. Dorian Mode. No chords needed. Two chord vamp, maybe. And absorb that.
7 chords in a progression is a whole nother thing than modes.
The only extensions for a chord in a mode is stacking the notes from the applicable seven note row by thirds.
It's too much information.
INTERVALS FIRST
in fact, I have a Prime Example of "what chords in Dorian mode?": Zilla Cruncheez
of course there is always CHUNGA's REVENGE. D Dorian
A MODE does NOT go around a circle of fifths. It has naught to do with a circle of fifths. Chunga's has to know intervals. In Fact, that's ALL you have to know as far as theory to play modally. Somone in India who is a total master of Raga, modal playing, has no need for knowledge of a circle of fifths, it's IRRELEVANT to the topic.
The best advice right now, is for Chunga to LISTEN to The Carlos Santana Secret Chord Progression on Shut Up 'N Play Yer Guitar. Or something like it, The Torture Never Stops. Dorian Mode. No chords needed. Two chord vamp, maybe. And absorb that.
7 chords in a progression is a whole nother thing than modes.
The only extensions for a chord in a mode is stacking the notes from the applicable seven note row by thirds.
It's too much information.
INTERVALS FIRST
in fact, I have a Prime Example of "what chords in Dorian mode?": Zilla Cruncheez
of course there is always CHUNGA's REVENGE. D Dorian
Last edited by jancivil on Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRAF
- 3257 posts since 28 Dec, 2007
Aaaaargh! ... Play! listen! .... dont think! ... just play! and listen .... no more names, no more terms, play, feel, understand, enjoy, demonstrate, express .... explanation is for teachers .... feeling and understanding is for those the teachers will one day need to learn how to explain! 
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- KVRAF
- 3257 posts since 28 Dec, 2007
OK, rant over, here's the straight answer.
Chords compatible in D dorian ...
C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am. ... any chord which contains no flats or sharps!
..... ( stop typing here I beg you!!!! .... OK, go make a fool of yourself, see if I care!)
Theoretically, Bdim comes in, but depending on the mood of the tune/song, either B'anything' wont happen or will be so abrupt to the flow, that it could be ... well , err B'anything' ... !
Keep it simple? play B'nothing' ... be brave? use B'anything' as a pivot to a key change!
Chords compatible in D dorian ...
C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am. ... any chord which contains no flats or sharps!
..... ( stop typing here I beg you!!!! .... OK, go make a fool of yourself, see if I care!)
Theoretically, Bdim comes in, but depending on the mood of the tune/song, either B'anything' wont happen or will be so abrupt to the flow, that it could be ... well , err B'anything' ... !
Keep it simple? play B'nothing' ... be brave? use B'anything' as a pivot to a key change!