What Chords are compatible with D Dorian scale

[jancivil]

if you know HOW to listen it's JUST LIKE THINKING

like I said: b dim will tend to a KEY CHANGE and therefore isn't MODAL.



and why the redundant oh so basic info? which has been demonstrated to be lacking.

[Gamma-UT]

if you know HOW to listen it's JUST LIKE THINKING

like I said: b dim will tend to a KEY CHANGE and therefore isn't MODAL.

Oh really? But I'm pretty sure a Dm6 is just dandy in D Dorian. Oh wait, Dm6 can be treated as an inversion of Bdim. Even un-inverted, you have the D in there plus the D Dorian's third, which provides a pretty stable base. Then you get the spicyness of the B in with that, which might provide a good contrast to other, more stable chords.

I've had a quick look at the Grimoire in Google Books online and I think I see the problem. The book's written from the viewpoint of what scales to play over which chords when improvising and how to select that scale. For example, if you have Dm7, then playing D Dorian is a good idea. But if this switches to G7, then your relevant scale for soloing will be G Mixolydian. You can keep playing the D Dorian over a G7 because they share the same scale, however. The sound will be subtly different because the reference points for the melody shift relative to the harmony.

Where I think you're coming from Chunga is that you're working on a melody that's based on a D Dorian scale and what to harmonise it, is that right? In which case, the Grimoire, as you've found, is no help at all. That's why I suggested possibly working in D minor rather than a mode like D Dorian. It will probably be easier to work with. You can, of course, continue with the D Dorian approach but it can feel more like a straitjacket until you've got more familiarity with the scales - if you drop in a C major chord, for example, you can easily wind up just composing a melody around the C major key rather than the D Dorian mode. However, if that works for the melody, then why not?

One possibility you could try is working with a bass on an open D string as a drone and seeing what fits around that. The drone will keep you in mode, as it were, and you'll be able to hear how the harmonies do and don't work with that.

[jancivil]

if you know HOW to listen it's JUST LIKE THINKING

like I said: b dim will tend to a KEY CHANGE and therefore isn't MODAL.

Oh really? But I'm pretty sure a Dm6 is just dandy in D Dorian. Oh wait, Dm6 can be treated as an inversion of Bdim. Even un-inverted, you have the D in there plus the D Dorian's third, which provides a pretty stable base. Then you get the spicyness of the B in with that, which might provide a good contrast to other, more stable chords.

I've had a quick look at the Grimoire in Google Books online and I think I see the problem. The book's written from the viewpoint of what scales to play over which chords when improvising and how to select that scale. For example, if you have Dm7, then playing D Dorian is a good idea. But if this switches to G7, then your relevant scale for soloing will be G Mixolydian. You can keep playing the D Dorian over a G7 because they share the same scale, however. The sound will be subtly different because the reference points for the melody shift relative to the harmony.

Where I think you're coming from Chunga is that you're working on a melody that's based on a D Dorian scale and what to harmonise it, is that right? In which case, the Grimoire, as you've found, is no help at all. That's why I suggested possibly working in D minor rather than a mode like D Dorian. It will probably be easier to work with. You can, of course, continue with the D Dorian approach but it can feel more like a straitjacket until you've got more familiarity with the scales - if you drop in a C major chord, for example, you can easily wind up just composing a melody around the C major key rather than the D Dorian mode. However, if that works for the melody, then why not?

One possibility you could try is working with a bass on an open D string as a drone and seeing what fits around that. The drone will keep you in mode, as it were, and you'll be able to hear how the harmonies do and don't work with that.

really? I did not know b diminished contained that A just like a D minor triad does. WAIT! it doesn't.

because that IS DIFFERENT. The A is a perfect fifth from the Tonic, so, that avoids the pitfalls of 'diminished triad'. As long as you don't invert it from the root position.

FTW: D minor add six IS NOT A B DIMINISHED TRIAD.

Let's have a look! D F A B
vs B D F.

and that tritone B F is still just not that desirable in any usage.

The B as an ADD 6 is a COLOR TONE.
B diminished triad is a functional harmony. These are important differences.
If you would like to prove me wrong, let's hear examples.

[Gamma-UT]

because that IS DIFFERENT. The A is a perfect fifth from the Tonic, so, that avoids the pitfalls of 'diminished triad'. As long as you don't invert it from the root position.

FTW: D minor add six IS NOT A B DIMINISHED TRIAD.

Let's have a look! D F A B
vs B D F.

The B as an ADD 6 is a COLOR TONE.
B diminished triad is a functional harmony. These are important differences.
If you would like to prove me wrong, let's hear examples.

Not all guitar chord voicings for Dm6 contain the A.

And by the way, we're in modal country here, what's functional harmony got to do with it?

While you're right in that Bdim does not equal Dm6 in all contexts, I'm not sure that's a distinction that's actually helpful to the OP or anyone else. Particularly when coupled to the idea that Bdim will trigger a key change.

and that tritone B F is still just not that desirable in any usage.

What, not ever? Ever, ever? Hear that blues players? The tritone is just wrong, plain wrong.

[pedrorf]

The book's written from the viewpoint of what scales to play over which chords when improvising and how to select that scale. For example, if you have Dm7, then playing D Dorian is a good idea. But if this switches to G7, then your relevant scale for soloing will be G Mixolydian. You can keep playing the D Dorian over a G7 because they share the same scale, however. The sound will be subtly different because the reference points for the melody shift relative to the harmony.

The problem is, that Dm7 G7 *very* strongly implies a C tonic chord next. And I bet the book will tell you to play C ionic over that. And you've been playing C major all along, not modally at all.

You can't just look at the notes you're playing and call it a mode. Just as you can't look at chord and immediately tell it's harmonic function. You've got to hear it in its context.

I mean no offense to anyone, as I play the guitar myself, and I'm guilty of the very same thing, but a good deal of guitar players will call a fingering a mode. If you're playing around a Dmin7 G7 Cmaj7 progression, I call it C major all over. Period. Feel free to call that thing you're playing over the Dmin7 a D dorian mode, as I do myself, for simplification purposes, but on a musical theory discussion that's still the C major scale, no matter if you're starting and ending your runs on the D. You're still in the C major tonality. Modal playing is an alternative for traditional tonality.

It's not about which notes, it's about what you're doing with them.

[Gamma-UT]

The book's written from the viewpoint of what scales to play over which chords when improvising and how to select that scale. For example, if you have Dm7, then playing D Dorian is a good idea. But if this switches to G7, then your relevant scale for soloing will be G Mixolydian. You can keep playing the D Dorian over a G7 because they share the same scale, however. The sound will be subtly different because the reference points for the melody shift relative to the harmony.

The problem is, that Dm7 G7 *very* strongly implies a C tonic chord next. And I bet the book will tell you to play C ionic over that. And you've been playing C major all along, not modally at all.

You can't just look at the notes you're playing and call it a mode. Just as you can't look at chord and immediately tell it's harmonic function. You've got to hear it in its context.

I mean no offense to anyone, as I play the guitar myself, and I'm guilty of the very same thing, but a good deal of guitar players will call a fingering a mode. If you're playing around a Dmin7 G7 Cmaj7 progression, I call it C major all over.

I have no argument that Dm7->G7(->CM7) = instant C Major tonality. I think you're missing the point I was making there. I was describing the context in which the Grimoire book is using the idea of modal scales. It's simply describing what scales fit with what chords - assuming I think that the sole purpose of modal scales is for soloing - and not making any explicit reference to the context in which those chords are used. It's a common problem in applied music theory books like this: they bang on about modes and chords without explaining the kind of situation they expect these rules to be used in.

That's why I recommended - assuming the OP is trying to do what I think they're trying to - laying the melody against a drone and working from there. It may not be textbook ideal but I believe it's going to be a more useful route than some of the nitpicky advice I've seen on this thread.

And, who knows, maybe the melody works better in C Major than D Dorian? If that's the case, go for it.

[Chungas Revenge]

Well I read through the posts in this thread this morning and was totally confused and bewildered by all the opinions.
Ive done some reading since then about Modal Harmonising and I think Im beginning to get what youre all talking about. What Ive gleaned so far is that to harmonise with a D Dorian just stick to Dm or Dm7 or create a vamp using chords diatonically adjacent to Dm, which I think is C and Em or maybe C7 and Em7 still trying to work that one out. I listened to FZ's Secret Chord Progressions a couple of times and the bass seems to stick fairly closely to the root.



Thanks to everyone for all your input

[jancivil]

because that IS DIFFERENT. The A is a perfect fifth from the Tonic, so, that avoids the pitfalls of 'diminished triad'. As long as you don't invert it from the root position.

FTW: D minor add six IS NOT A B DIMINISHED TRIAD.

Let's have a look! D F A B
vs B D F.

The B as an ADD 6 is a COLOR TONE.
B diminished triad is a functional harmony. These are important differences.
If you would like to prove me wrong, let's hear examples.

Not all guitar chord voicings for Dm6 contain the A.

And by the way, we're in modal country here, what's functional harmony got to do with it?

While you're right in that Bdim does not equal Dm6 in all contexts, I'm not sure that's a distinction that's actually helpful to the OP or anyone else. Particularly when coupled to the idea that Bdim will trigger a key change.

and that tritone B F is still just not that desirable in any usage.

What, not ever? Ever, ever? Hear that blues players? The tritone is just wrong, plain wrong.

functional harmony has nothing to do with it = when you start thinking in terms of it, you're not modal. When you start thinking in terms of all of these chords, 'D min 6', that's where you're headed. And that's a cute thing, D min 6, the b is a COLOR TONE, it's not the basic chord.
Why would a guitar player omit the A on the tonic chord? Because it's a basic harmonic of the root, which is in our ears in this mode. It's really part of the chord anyway. A B diminished, is another story altogether. If you don't understand this, I'm sorry.

I'm saying that to think in terms of a chord like G7, even, know why it's taking you out of the mode.

if you do a bare tritone without that fifth anchoring, you are in danger of suggesting function.
For a newcomer with no concept of intervals, (this is why I'm posting), a B DIMINISHED chord is going to tend to want to resolve to C major. D Dorian has just left the building.

as a beginner, you would want to avoid the HELL out of a b diminished triad in D dorian..

that tritone, you might use in a a bluesy thing, absolutely. Show me how that's dorian mode. Show me some music you did where you get away with exploiting that tritone, the sixth and third degrees from a tonic, and still reveal the character of dorian. I posted my own usage to illustrate WHICH CHORDS support dorian playing.
Talk is cheap.


Back to the OP: these chords are primary, as in my track (besides the obvious 'i' chord, d minor or just 'power chord' = D + A) - iii = F. IV = G. bVII = C. Though in mine, it's B dorian. So, I go to D, E, and A.
In most cases, refer back to D, ie., the tonic

G and C major have relative minors, Em and Am. In a kind of blues type of turnaround, you might get to the A.

The bass must stick close to the root, that's absolutely correctamundo. You refer to, keep going to the root/the tonic, or you are doing harmony to go to major or minor, in some way.

The song Chunga's Revenge is total D dorian. The thing to do is transcribe these kinds of things by ear, seriously. Theory is just words describing principles. You have to hear it, hearing it has to be the fundamental thing.

[PurpleCatfishBettie]

What if you opened a piece by playing, d minor to C Major chords several times over? Typically, the ear would be fooled into thinking, "this is in the key of 'd natural minor,' going to the VII and back to i."

Then, when starting a solo on a d note, the ear would yet be fooled. It would only be upon arrival at a 'b natural' - somewhere along the way - instead of 'b flat' (as expected in the 'd minor' key) that the ear would realize were were in 'd dorian' (based off of C Major) and not in 'd minor.'

I'm just throwing that out there.

For what it's worth; in college, they gave us this device for memorizing the modes:

I
Don't
Phone
Lydia
Much
Anymore,
Louise

You know, the mode thing has never really made complete sense to me.

I had always thought that it was 'context' dependent upon whether you were in minor or Major to begin with. This was reinforced at some point in watching a guitar instructional video, where they were describing a piece based off of 'G7' (some classical players would call it a 'G Major, minor 7th chord') yet in the key of 'c minor.' They said it was the, 'mixolydian mode of c minor.' I thought, 'ok, it's based off of the 5th note (G) of the key of 'c minor,' so mixolydian sounds right.'

I had always thought of it that way; for instance that you could have a 'b dorian' off of the key of 'a minor.'

It turns out that many - if not most - musicians don't see it that way. Instead, the modes are always based off of the Major. This actually seems less flexible to me than having 2 sets of modes, 1 for Major and 1 for minor.

What if a person wanted to play off of E7 but in the 'a harmonic minor' scale? Is that Phrygian mode off of C Major, or is it mixolydian mode off of 'a minor?' I would have called it the latter, but apparently such an animal doesn't exist.

The way I was approaching it was something I'd internalized long ago, and had thought they'd taught us that way in college. When I got into a disagreement over this, I went back to the old syllabus, and could not back up my own recollection.

On the other hand, it's interesting that the way I'd been doing it was presented as being correct in the instructional video: When the host of the video said, "Here's something based off of G7, the mixolydian of 'c minor,' it totally fit in with what I'd been thinking all along.

Up until I have fairly well ignored modes; like others, I never grasped 'why.' It could be a result of how I learned to play the guitar.

In any event, this thread has been helpful in pointing out that it's about intervals and not chords.

Still, if you've got harmonic and melodic minor, it would seem to me that the modes in that event should be based off of the minor tonic, and not its relative Major. Does that make any sense?

Calling the key of 'a melodic minor' for instance, the 'Aeolian of C Major;' it just doesn't work for me. I would call the same key, "the Ionian of 'a minor.'"

lol

YMMV

[Gamma-UT]

and that tritone B F is still just not that desirable in any usage.

[...Stuff...]

if you do a bare tritone without that fifth anchoring, you are in danger of suggesting function.
For a newcomer with no concept of intervals, (this is why I'm posting), a B DIMINISHED chord is going to tend to want to resolve to C major. D Dorian has just left the building.

as a beginner, you would want to avoid the HELL out of a b diminished triad in D dorian..

that tritone, you might use in a a bluesy thing, absolutely. Show me how that's dorian mode. Show me some music you did where you get away with exploiting that tritone, the sixth and third degrees from a tonic, and still reveal the character of dorian. I posted my own usage to illustrate WHICH CHORDS support dorian playing.
Talk is cheap.

I had worked out some progressions that would IMHO sustain D Dorian with a Bdim appearing in them (ii-IV-vi0-v-i and i-vi0-bVII-i sounded reasonable enough that I've parked them in the "use later" file). But I kept it simple with 30 seconds of 2x(Bdim-Dmin). I make no apologies for the playing style - I had a rough idea of getting the tritone interval, worked something quick out and then just hit record in the sequencer - it was simply quicker that way.

http://web.me.com/chrismed/music/bdim-dmin-dorian.mp3

Does it 'support' Dorian playing? - you know, I haven't the faintest idea. I would argue that hitting the B in this way reinforces D Dorian as it's the M6 with D that tells you which mode you're in.

[Gamma-UT]

What if you opened a piece by playing, d minor to C Major chords several times over? Typically, the ear would be fooled into thinking, "this is in the key of 'd natural minor,' going to the VII and back to i."

Then, when starting a solo on a d note, the ear would yet be fooled. It would only be upon arrival at a 'b natural' - somewhere along the way - instead of 'b flat' (as expected in the 'd minor' key) that the ear would realize were were in 'd dorian' (based off of C Major) and not in 'd minor.'

I think it would be inconclusive based on that alone: context will determine whether it's heard as C Major or D Dorian. Modes are a bit fragile, which is arguably why the key-based major/minor system pushed them to the sidelines. When modal counterpoint was evolving in the 1500s, composers kept making little tweaks that, in effect, reduced the six core church modes to the two-mode tonal system (pushing a leading tone up here, flattening another note there to make it more consonant).

So, with a mode, a lot depends on what you do as you play around it. I tried it a few times and found even just switching the chord order made a subjective difference. But, I agree, that B natural (as happens in Scarborough Fair) reinforces the sense of it being D Dorian. Also, Drunken Sailor has that oscillating structure with a tap on the major sixth to let you know it's Dorian. Peter van der Merwe who wrote a couple of books on folk's influence over pop and classical music refers to the structure as 'double tonic'.

You know, the mode thing has never really made complete sense to me.

Join the club. It's just never received the same kind of attention from music theoreticians that the tonal system has. Off the top of my head, I can think of five ways of using a mode and I haven't dared dig into all the jazz methods.

You've got:

1) Classical Greek/church modes - the original application. No harmony, just melody. A strict ambitus (span of notes), and fairly well-understood rules on which notes to use (particularly at the end).
2) Folk songs. 'Drunken sailor' and all that. Lots of drone notes/pedal tones.
3) Improvising over tonal music (eg playing Dorian over a minor chord, then switching to Mixolydian for another, maybe going back to the first chord and playing a different mode over it for a subtly different sound). I think this is one found in most guitar practise books.
4) Modal polyphony - the extension of the Church modes into classical music. Avoid heavy use of the fifth. The fourth is effectively banned. Thirds and sixths are all good. No tritones, not even intervals that might hint at a tritone.
5) Modal jazz of the "pick a mode and stay in it" variety, which I think is roughly what this thread has been about, as opposed to version 3.
6) Modes in classical music - if you regard the major and minor scales as being modes of a key, which not use them all? Why modulate from C major to minor when you can go mixolydian? As used by Ravel, Stravinsky and others in the early 20C, arguably because common-practice tonal music had run out of ideas.

Did I say five? Six is the number of modal applications. Classical, folk, fear, surprise....

It turns out that many - if not most - musicians don't see it that way.

If they are used to one way of doing it, I can understand why. I saw an interesting comment on a jazz forum about Ravel's use of modes. And Ravel didn't really go in for leading notes either. He got dismissed as being an example of the "anything goes 20th Century". On a jazz forum.

In any event, this thread has been helpful in pointing out that it's about intervals and not chords.

It could be about chords, although that depends on whether you believe chords are stacked thirds or simply notes played at once. I'm in the latter camp: clusters are fine by me. Piston's book on Harmony describes Ravel's use of modes very much in terms of chords and, indeed, functional harmony. It is at the back, mind.

But the theory, rules or advice for using chords in modes is not very coherent, and certainly not gathered in one place. Music theory has some pretty serious holes in it.

[PurpleCatfishBettie]

Thanks for the reply; and the laugh...

"I saw an interesting comment on a jazz forum about Ravel's use of modes. And Ravel didn't really go in for leading notes either. He got dismissed as being an example of the "anything goes 20th Century". On a jazz forum."

I'm with you on the idea that a chord is just a group of notes played at the same time; and that clusters are ok.

"Music theory has some pretty serious holes in it."

agreed

I suppose that, whatever helps a musician to understand their craft; that's what it's all about. Then, when 2 or more musicians can successfully 'interface' with one another; that's musical magic.

[Wallimann]

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Great modal discussions guys!
Here is a video that explains it all...


Also some modal backing tracks available here: www.guitarplaybak.com (http://www.guitarplaybak.com)

I hope that helps!