Amp modelers vs amps vs preamps vs pedals

[susiwong]

Also, the fact that the amp mainly had power tube saturation and very little preamp tube saturation made for a great recorded tone.

Exactly what I'm talking about, arguably that's where the real tube magic is.
My own (real amp) benchmark is the MESA Heartbreaker with 6L6s, set almost clean with low power, tweed and curvaceous settings.
Paired with any good guitar I've seen some diehard vintage snobs grow pale in the face.
That's for a small amp vibe, but this amp delivers the fast attack, big amp thing just as convincingly if you change the 3 mentioned settings.
It eats my SF Twin Reverb and Deluxe Reverb for breakfast regarding clean Fender tone.
And it's definitely down to the amp, various cabs give different timbres but the basic character remains untouched.
Now if I could get some of this magic into the PC without the need for miking the loud amp I'd be set ...

I'll see if I can hunt down a GT speaker emulator for testing, but the chances are slim here in good old Europe. Is this device silent acoustically ?

I've not checked the Nebula cabs yet, afaik they only work in the commercial version, no ?

Ymmv,
susiwong

[susiwong]

To me, the response is even more important than the tone (I want every amp to feel like a Super Reverb on 7)

Somehow I overlooked that comment, but a big uncompromised AMEN to that.
Cheers,
susiwong

[monkeymanx]

I've read about people going nuts over the nebula cab sim, if only it was more available and easier to use. Plus from what I've read nebula is a latency hound so it would be more for mixing, I like the feeling as do many guitar players.

I went back to guitar center and another local shop today. Tried that Marshall Haze which was decent and then that Egnater rebel 20 head in to the mesa 2x12 and it was nice. It was all tube power and pre distortion. The only thing is, if you want that brutal style metal distortion, you need an overdrive or distortion pedal for the extra gain.

Now I almost bought that and was going to try it recording and do some shout outs but didn't, even though I could just return it. Maybe I will just stick with the sims so the quest for tone doesn't drive me mad.

I also thought about what a PITA having all the stomp pedals I would need for different tones too, various overdrives and what not. Although, the Egnater tone was very nice. A real natural sounding distortion. All sims sound like buzzy garbage when you turn the amp's gain to 10 but the egnator sounded awesome. I think that is still a problem with all sims. They seem to emulate that breakup at higher tube gain poorly.

Anyway, if I do break down, I'll post some clips.

[susiwong]

I also thought about what a PITA having all the stomp pedals I would need for different tones too, various overdrives and what not.

Lol, if only it were a PITA, it's fun and addictive, that's the problem !
Ymmv,
susiwong

[RunBeerRun]

I thank God for the Zoom 3030 hardware unit, the 1st amp modeler I ever had. That thing was awesome.

By the time I got into direct recording, they were all pretty sad. I can't believe my recording days lasted as long as they have.

[redshift factor]

After using pretty much all the free and payware amps I've really started to realize that they just sound like distortion pedals being run into a cab sim. If I run a distortion stomp pedal tube or non tube into a cab sim or impulse it sounds similar if not better than the amp modeler software. Now this got me thinking, why not just buy one of those Radial tonebone pedals and run it into an impulse. It would be a legit tube distortion too. It is simple, eats no CPU and could be used live or to record with.

[...]

I guess one turn off with the amp sims for me is that you have loads of amps in there that all sound decent but nothing really seems to bring that smile to my face like that little 5 watt head did last night. I mean, who the heck needs 100 different amps? In the end, this would almost hinder your ability to record because of too many choices and the continuous search for that tone.

Ampsims are good for dialing in your tone after recording. I've had experiences where as a mix builds, I find myself wishing I could alter my guitar tone to sit in the mix better. Perhaps more distortion, perhaps less, or perhaps a totally different amp tone altogether. You can't do that with a miked cab or a recorded distortion pedal. Also, if you record your guitar clean, dry, and direct, you can stick a denoise pedal between the dry signal and your ampsim, which will give you full overdriven tones without any of the buzz or hum.

Perhaps if you're just looking for over the top distortion, one is just as good as the other. At a certain point of saturation, all distortion sounds alike. But an ampsim is supposed to be about more than that, at least a good one is. It should also be about imparting the subtle character of various recognizable amps. If you worked with more clean and slightly dirty tones, you would see that.

Furthermore, a good ampsim gives you spatialization options, so you can place your virtual amp in the stereo field of a virtual room using phase and ambiance controls.

All of this together gives you more control over every aspect of how your guitar sounds in the final mix, and the ability to tweak it right up until final mixdown. At least to me, this is the truly unique power of using ampsims.

[zerocrossing]

I guess after trying all this software I'm just at a loss. I know people seem to hate Line 6, but with impulses, most of their amps sound as good if not better than other software out there. I sold off my TH1 and Amplitube. Have Guitar Rig and POD Farm.

Well, you sold the software I think sounds good and kept the ones I think sound bad so I have nothing to add. For me any time I'm dissatisfied with my tone coming from one of the Amplitube sims its because I'm playing at a pretty quiet volume with headphones. Ah, such is life in urban sprawl... take the cans off and crank it up a bit and all the tone I need is right there.

[monkeymanx]

Yea, that could help. That is the thing when playing on an amp, it's cranked up and gets you going. I never really crank up the sims.

I actually really enjoyed TH1 but the GUI is odd but I got used to it. I always like the effects in Amplitube but wasn't huge on their amp models, especially for high gain stuff. I guess the cleans were good though. I thought overall that TH1 was probably the best package.

[Hink]

Also, the fact that the amp mainly had power tube saturation and very little preamp tube saturation made for a great recorded tone.

Exactly what I'm talking about, arguably that's where the real tube magic is.
My own (real amp) benchmark is the MESA Heartbreaker with 6L6s, set almost clean with low power, tweed and curvaceous settings.
Paired with any good guitar I've seen some diehard vintage snobs grow pale in the face.
That's for a small amp vibe, but this amp delivers the fast attack, big amp thing just as convincingly if you change the 3 mentioned settings.
It eats my SF Twin Reverb and Deluxe Reverb for breakfast regarding clean Fender tone.
And it's definitely down to the amp, various cabs give different timbres but the basic character remains untouched.
Now if I could get some of this magic into the PC without the need for miking the loud amp I'd be set ...

I'll see if I can hunt down a GT speaker emulator for testing, but the chances are slim here in good old Europe. Is this device silent acoustically ?

I've not checked the Nebula cabs yet, afaik they only work in the commercial version, no ?

Ymmv,
susiwong

of course I still have my Mesa Boogie SOB and 4x12, I had to sell my little blues jr My homemade deadbox does okay but I can't really turn it up as loud as I want. I might fork out the bux for a real deadbox and put one of my celestions in it. I have to have the 4x12 because, well because I have to have a 4x12 But in my apartment rarely does get excercise

I have a bit of everything in the thred title. Like I have my marshall pre (tube of course) and my bluetube pre. I don't have much for pedals, mxr dist +, sansamp gt2, original boss super chorus and a boss turbo O.D. Sims are a POD 2.0, POD xt live, GR3 (software only).

The radial aby gives me countless combinations as I also have 16 physical inputs (10 xlr/trs 6 trs) so my choices are huge. Now I just gotta get busy with it

[Uncle E]

At a certain point of saturation, all distortion sounds alike.

As I'm sure you know, with a good amp, the saturation is happening at many different stages and not just with one stage being driven over the top. A hybrid amp that only has one or two stages of a single 12AX7 generating all the distortion does indeed sound like an average amp sim, whereas a JCM800's tighter, more defined saturation is the result of six preamp tube stages, four power tube stages, an output transformer stage (which is generally lower quality in a hybrid or solid state amp), and a speaker all working together as a system. I'm not actually contradicting your point - you're completely right that there is a point of clipping where everything is just a square wave - but it doesn't actually apply to this scenario.

btw, the first great amp I owned was an old Music Man with a solid state preamp, a 12AT7 driver, four 6L6's, and some very nice, overbuilt transformers. That was a fantastic sounding amp.

[zerocrossing]

Yea, that could help. That is the thing when playing on an amp, it's cranked up and gets you going. I never really crank up the sims.

I actually really enjoyed TH1 but the GUI is odd but I got used to it. I always like the effects in Amplitube but wasn't huge on their amp models, especially for high gain stuff. I guess the cleans were good though. I thought overall that TH1 was probably the best package.

Did you try Metal? It pretty much nails the high gain sound for me and even the clean models sound great. Might be worth a download as it's a free demo.

Also, I'll echo what's been said about a sustainiac/sustainer system. My Steinberger's got a custom installed Sustainiac on board and I can't tell you how much it makes the guitar come to life when it's on. It really allows you to play at moderate volumes but get that "I'm standing in front of a cranked stack" feeling.

[susiwong]

btw, the first great amp I owned was an old Music Man with a solid state preamp, a 12AT7 driver, four 6L6's, and some very nice, overbuilt transformers. That was a fantastic sounding amp.

Very underrated amps.
I used to play one (the tremolo model) combined with a Marshall halfstack, great tone and you could go from Tele to Les Paul without touching a control, both sounded fine and retained their character, something that I miss in most current amps.
Ymmv,
susiwong

[monkeymanx]

Alright, so I'm going to rebuy TH1. I demoed Amplitube Metal for a bit and ran it through impulses, which made it sound better but IMHO, it just doesn't do it as far as a real heavy metal tone. I did crank up my speakers, which was a whole lot of fun with TH1. I'm still trying to figure out why I sold it in the first place.

I tried to demo softube metal amp room but I guess they don't let people demo their stuff or something. Tried the download but I guess that is if you actually own it. Maybe it is that good that you don't need to demo it LOL!!! Joking of course.

I A/B'ed the rectifer between POD Farm and TH1 and boy o boy, POD Farm definately sounds different, more like a solid state amp vs tube. Just a different flavor.

[guitarzan]

Could you please post your experience with the Ampulator and the Blues Master ?
Would it be worth hunting one of them down ?

I didn't like the Ampulator at all...it had so much hype about it all over the net that I hung onto it quite a while but it never did anything for me...seemed super mushy most of the time with either a Mesa Boogie Studio pre or a SOHO QTR-1 (basically an improved version of the Kittyhawk Quattro) feeding it. I read somewhere that the Ampulator works best with more strident preamps, like the ADA MP1. Luckily, the hype continued and I nearly doubled my money when I sold it on eBay.

The Blues Master was my favorite of the H&K line of half-rack rcording amps most of the time that I had all four, but at the end I chose to only keep the BATT, which was intended for bass, but it is the only one of the bunch that really did have an all tube tone path. It sounded a lot like the Blues Master (same tubes, 12ax7 and an el84) but less hyped, more versaitle with pedals and preamps, etc. used the same tubes in both, a military spec Phillips 12ax7 and a vintage Mullard el84. The BATT doesn't have the cabulator or whatever they call the H&K cab emulator, but I never cared for it anyway. With the Mullard installed they both do a chimey "clean" best, and they really don't do the gooey compressed poweramp thing much, but I remember reading of people who found that they could get a lot of poweramp grind with some brand of el84's.

I've read about people going nuts over the nebula cab sim, if only it was more available and easier to use. Plus from what I've read nebula is a latency hound so it would be more for mixing, I like the feeling as do many guitar players.

If you read through the Nebula Free programs! thread at the guitarampmodeling.com forums you will find links to some Nebula speaker cab files that work with Nebula 3 Free. They show up in Nebula as "AE" or something odd like that. Though not really my favorite mic'ed cab tones (a little "honky", at least one I remember) I thought they had better feel and more openess than static IRs, but I think if Nebula can sample compression characteristics (I know it's been planned as a feature for some time) then that technique should be applied to cab sampling to get the feel part down, IMO.

[shanecgriffo]

Alright, so I'm going to rebuy TH1. I demoed Amplitube Metal for a bit and ran it through impulses, which made it sound better but IMHO, it just doesn't do it as far as a real heavy metal tone. I did crank up my speakers, which was a whole lot of fun with TH1. I'm still trying to figure out why I sold it in the first place.

I tried to demo softube metal amp room but I guess they don't let people demo their stuff or something. Tried the download but I guess that is if you actually own it. Maybe it is that good that you don't need to demo it LOL!!! Joking of course.

I A/B'ed the rectifer between POD Farm and TH1 and boy o boy, POD Farm definately sounds different, more like a solid state amp vs tube. Just a different flavor.

I just tried and subsequently bought TH1 last night, its a lot of fun but haven't had a chance to play it loud (except w/ head phones) yet.
I also have the fully maxed podfarm (platinum equivalent) but have had troubles with it since day 1- very unstable for me on my system , and a pain always having to plug in my xtl as a 'dongle' .. we have a baby almost 1 year old so most chances i get to record at home i have to use 'phones and i have to say i never really liked the sound of the line 6 stuff thru phones, always a bit harsh.
TH1 sounds nice tho and JH amplitube also (just bought that one here, 2nd hand last week)
together those two combined can get a very nice tone/vibe going.
Good enough to inspire lots of new ideas!