Wiki-Squidsipedia: Differences between Ocean Way Drums, Drum Masters and more...

[Squids]

Thanks Squids for the reply. So from what you said I understand that IP is more flexible in terms of the sound material it can play (drums, instruments etc) while Ocean Drums are only drums only focused.

If talking about drums. How do they compare? I've read about OD and IP but it seems that they offer pretty the same thing. Number of tracks for the kit is the only difference I've spotted.

Are there any actual software demos for both of them to figure out what works the best?

Well, one main difference between them (and a main difference between ALL drum plug-ins/sound packs on the market) is that they were recorded in different studios with different gear, mics, instruments and engineers. Those elements all contribute to the sound! That's why a lot of people own more than one drum software. So for me, I think of it mostly in terms of the sounds. If I like those Lost NY Studio Sessions Toontrack has then I'm interested in what they captured there. If I am curious about Andy Johns (he and his brother Glyn are some favorite engineers of mine) then I'm glad there's a library he recorded (which I have too). Anything where someone went to the trouble to capture something with a particular character to it that I like is something I appreciate. So, for Sonic Reality I just go for those things directly - the things I think would be amazing to capture.

Now, in the case of Ocean Way Drums they actually came to me about it and wanted to do it with us. I would never have been able to just book a studio like Ocean Way for 2 months straight on my own anyway, let alone have access to Allen Sides complete mic locker! This is as good as it gets because when a rare mic like am AKG C12 or Telefunken 251 is used it isn't just any old mic but a matched pair and hand selected out of FIFTY different ones which NO ONE but someone like Allen has the luxury of. (Who has 50 of any of those mics????).

Plus the legacy of Ocean Way Recording and the sound of that Studio B room is incredible. I used to do sessions there as a keyboardist/programmer for people like T-Bone Burnette and Sam Phillips. I also rented a bunch of my vintage keyboards to Jack Joselph Puig (the Waves JJP guy who has his studio at Ocean Way... actually it looks totally different now, that room has been converted back to Studio A without all the crazy gadgets which are now in Studio D which was where Rush mixed their last album). So, anyway, I've always wanted to do sampling at Ocean Way but got a luck break when my friend Steven Miller introduced me to Allen Sides. I flew out to LA (where I used to live) and explained how we could do what he wanted which was not possible with any other drum plug-in. He wanted HIGH RESOLUTION drum kits with discrete mixing per kit but also with his and Miller's "album ready" mixes easily available so no one had to know how to engineer it... but they could if they wanted to.

I know this is maybe more than you asked for but talking about studios, gear, sampling I hope is interesting to the same people buying modeled outboard gear - the kind of gear you'd find AT Ocean Way! I mean, afterall, I was just saying that Waves' JJP is based on the Fairchild and Pultec at Ocean Way. It's $1,000 or something like that! Waves stuff is great if you have the money. I think I'm going to pick up that API pack (even though we have a bunch at the studio in hardware but... not for every channel!!!! Plug-ins come to the rescue... to buy more 550A would be a budget breaker for the studio). Anyway, you guys are PSYCHED that you're getting top quality emulations of a Fairchild 670 and Pultec EQ for what? $16.50 each? Haha. Jeez no wonder this deal is so popular!!!

Anyway, to wrap up what the deal is with Ocean Way Drums that is different than Drum Masters... Ocean Way Drums has the sound of that Studio B room which is immense and beautiful. A classic and you can see it with full explanation here: www.oceanwaydrums.net/videos.php Watch those videos! Some cool studio shots in there. Besides the sound of the engineers' style, the mics used and placement, the console, the A to D and audiophile quality equipment all the way to the end... there is the way it is presented to you to use. One of the unique features of Ocean Way Drums is that not only does it have mix presets made by Allen Sides and Steven Miller but there's a unique system to the mix presets. Each kit and kit piece has fully discrete control of the mic channels with up to 13 channels just for the snare (with 3 room positions, two stereo directs, stereo under snare, AMS RMX return... uncommon things like that).

I will come back and say more after breakfast.

[Squids]

Part two:

Ocean Way Drums has its own player that is only for Ocean Way kits. (Most Kontakt Player products are like this where they only play one library series). It has consolidated "buss" mixing at the output stage with less channels to worry about so it is very easy. However, it has discrete mixing of the mics PER KIT PIECE which is more control than you usually have in drum plug-ins. That means you can get a different mix for the kick vs. the snare. You can simulate what some producers have done where they have less room on the hi hats but the kick and snare have huge rooms and things like that. In the real world that would have to be done by overdubbing but in OWD you can do it in real time and make a kit with the optimal mix per kit piece if you want. The other thing that is unique is that each kit and kit piece has SIX mixes always going from DRY to AMBIENT. These "album ready" mixes are also done at Ocean Way by Allen Sides and Steven Miller (the top engineers who recorded it). Since Ocean Way is home to a massive amount of hit records the idea here is to give people the sound of Ocean Way in a box to some extent. A polished professional touch with instant gratification via presets yet without sacrificing deep level of control. (The lower cost DL version gives you 3 mix presets per kit and you do sacrifice the discrete mic mixing is all. But the Silver, Gold and Platinum versions are multichannel).

The sound of Ocean Way Drums is achieved mainly from mic selection and placement in combination with incredible clarity from the proprietary recording equipment they have (explained in detail videos here: www.oceanwaydrums.net/videos.php). The character of Ocean Way Drums is mostly about the fidelity. The crispness of the highs, the depth of the low end... it has a rare audiophile clarity to it that is hard to achieve unless you have the equipment, acoustic room and know-how of these guys. It's not processed much so you have a natural sound. The only processing is that two of the room options have some compression on them and there's a THWAK channel (compression with a very rare "secret weapon" compressor at Ocean Way) and the AMS reverse reverb return as an extra on kick and snare for a sort of "noise/gate" sound if you want to beef it up ala Phil Collins (who Sides also engineered and must have used that effect with him I bet).

So, Ocean Way Drums is not hyped artificially to have its punch. You can take its sound and freely run them through products like T-Racks and have a LOT of wide frequencies and dynamics to work with. It only gets better as opposed to worse when being run through a TR opto compressor or the Fairchild emulation. I say that because some products that already have a lot of processing may sound good out of the box but they can easily get worse when you try to apply your own processing!

Okay so that is Ocean Way Drums. Hi fidelity drum kits (also there's a 96k version which is another rare thing but really the 48k sounds just as good to me and that is what I use... note that most drum plug-ins are 44.1 which seems to potentially lose some crispness on the highs but it depends on a lot of things so not necessarily in all cases).

Now, Drum Masters is different. It was done in many different studios around the world. It's an on going series with many new kits and grooves being developed. The approach is even more raw and natural with virtually no processing at the sample level and the new 1.5 update gives it full discrete mic channel control at both the kit piece and output buss levels. That means you can externally process every mic channel and get a different mix per kit piece. On top of that we've added built-in effects in Drum Masters 1.5 and you'll get really cool out of the box presets WITH the processing (so you can have instant Hard Rock, Pop, Metal, Classic Rock and other sounds). But because it isn't done at the sample level you can dial it back if you want or turn it off completely and run everything through T-Racks instead. Truth be told, external effects like T-Racks, Waves, Abbey Road and UAD are a lot better than the built-in effects in Kontakt. No surprise. But it is convenient to have the built-in effects and instant gratification processed sounds (as evidenced by the popularity of products like Steven Slate Drums) so... now you'll be able to have that sort of instant SLAM factor but without losing the natural original sound of the drums. I am personally a lover of the character of the natural acoustic sound and like to tailor the processing to the song I am working on... but I admit that the instant processed preset IS inspiring so... best of both worlds in Drum Masters 1.5

There is sooooooooo much more to talk about on this subject though. Drum Masters 1.5 will now have the ability to map to ANY e-Drum with midi learn for quick user maps. It has a dedicated V-Drum, GM and iMap mode now with the ability to round robin left and right stick articulations... all sorts of bells and whistles that make it powerful. I haven't even gotten into the user selectable GROOVE mapping where you have a menu of multi-track REX grooves that snap to tempo and you select them and map them if you want to make a custom set to play along side the kit and go back and forth between them...

Anyway, there's nothing like playing with this stuff in your own hands. So, what we're going to do is this. Right NOW you can download a free Ocean Way Drums DL kit (kit 10 with the medium dry/ambient mix) from www.downloadablesoundz.com/oceanwaydrums - just follow the link from there. It comes with Ocean Way Drums Expandable Player in trial mode which will work for 2 weeks. But you can get the new Kontakt Player 3.5 for free from NI which will let you continue to use it with some limitations (like 30 minutes at a time... their new demo mode).

However, I am going to see if we can give away a free kit piece from Multichannel OWD (can't give away the farm! but to see what the multichannel mixing is like... might be cool to get a tom, kick or snare or something... let me see)

On the Drum Masters side, we're planning on having a FREE trial kit with a few multi-channel kit pieces with the 1.5 scripts so you can see all of these features I am talking about as well as multitrack groove menus with the custom select feature I mentioned... and on top of that a trial version of the Infinite Player which, yes, is what is used for Drum Masters but CAN be used to play many other Sonic Reality sound collections including other instruments, sound effects and more.

Now I am going to eat a late breakfast! Getting yelled at here in fact... woops!

Feel free to ask any questions you'd like!

[DarkStar]

Sheesh. Did you have 3 Weetabix for breakfast? (that may be a UK joke)

[don1thedon]

Ha, I got it

[Squids]

Sheesh. Did you have 3 Weetabix for breakfast? (that may be a UK joke)

You guys have some weird stuff for breakfast. When I was in Surrey at The Farm (which must be close to you) I had some SCARY bacon (really fatty and massive) as well as some sort of biscuit... the kind of stuff that clogs things up!

No, I had a Miami "Columbian Breakfast" which had its share of challenging digestive qualities... an empanada, steak with eggs, rice and beans... avacado. Cafe Con Leche. Nice actually. But I ended up going to the movies after and it was "so so". I am a movie buff but I am critical. There's such thing as "suspension of disbelief" and while I am liberal when it comes to fantasy/sci fi etc. it has to make sense and be cohesive or it loses me. Time Travelers Wife and District 9 just lost me. The concepts could have made for good movies but... nope. Unfortunately not. I am surprised at how many movies miss in terms of script these days.

But, anyway, back to these Kontakt scripts.... (like the transition back on topic?)

[Squids]

Thanks Squids. That really helped clear things up for me on the difference between OWD and Drum Masters. Will the 1.5 update be free or will it be a paid upgrade? The reason I ask is that I have the Drum Masters Silver Edition as well as 6 other multitrack kits from the last GB.

I have a Roland electronic drum kit and an mpd 24 that I like to use to play my samplesets with. It sounds like the 1.5 update will be perfect for me with round robin hits and all those other features you mentioned.

Will OWD also get the 1.5 treatment or does it already have these edrum features that will be added to the Drum Masters series?

Thanks again!
Doug

The 1.5 upgrade will be free for ALL Drum Masters users (even people that just bought kits or grooves a la carte). We like to make things free when we can, especially if we want to reward early adopters for their support. In fact, we're even thinking about giving something EXTRA to all of those who already have it or have been patiently waiting for it since I announced some of the update features in the last group buy. We want to make sure we keep our customers happy even if our plans change or we're late on something.

OWD may eventually get some of the same features too but it is a lot of work so I'd have to get that approved by them. If Drum Masters 1.5 does really well then it could be an argument to update OWD with some of the same features as well (without losing the current features OWD has though because that was a lot of work to do the preset mixes into the script itself with key switching... a unique feature to OWD that nothing else has).

[SuperFly76]

Thanks Squids. That really helped clear things up for me on the difference between OWD and Drum Masters. Will the 1.5 update be free or will it be a paid upgrade? The reason I ask is that I have the Drum Masters Silver Edition as well as 6 other multitrack kits from the last GB.

I have a Roland electronic drum kit and an mpd 24 that I like to use to play my samplesets with. It sounds like the 1.5 update will be perfect for me with round robin hits and all those other features you mentioned.

Will OWD also get the 1.5 treatment or does it already have these edrum features that will be added to the Drum Masters series?

Thanks again!
Doug

The 1.5 upgrade will be free for ALL Drum Masters users (even people that just bought kits or grooves a la carte). We like to make things free when we can, especially if we want to reward early adopters for their support. In fact, we're even thinking about giving something EXTRA to all of those who already have it or have been patiently waiting for it since I announced some of the update features in the last group buy. We want to make sure we keep our customers happy even if our plans change or we're late on something.

OWD may eventually get some of the same features too but it is a lot of work so I'd have to get that approved by them. If Drum Masters 1.5 does really well then it could be an argument to update OWD with some of the same features as well (without losing the current features OWD has though because that was a lot of work to do the preset mixes into the script itself with key switching... a unique feature to OWD that nothing else has).

Awesome news indeed!

[xybre]

Well, one main difference between them...

Wow, I don't even give a damn about live drums and you make me want it!

[Squids]

Well, one main difference between them...

Wow, I don't even give a damn about live drums and you make me want it!

Thanks! Over the next couple of months I am going to be doing things to try to show how our approach benefits the computer studio owner in terms of bringing in the qualities of a live drum session in combination with your modeled effects plug-ins. We're all getting VERY close to the quality that used to be reserved for only those with BIG record company budgets to record at studios like Ocean Way, Abbey Road, The Townhouse etc. That's exciting! But, there are good things to know about how these sessions for classic albums were done (and still are with bands people like from Metal to Rock to Alt Rock to Prog Rock to Jazz to Hip Hop to Classic Rock...). So to simulate THAT and get as close to the real thing as possible... that's what we're after maybe more than any other sound company. I'm not just "saying" that but it is backed up by the sheer variety of technique and how it all works together.

On top of that, there are additional educational benefits about grooves (slowing the sliced grooves down to hear what parts are played from these greats?) or listening to individual mic channels or mixes from these engineers... what I LOVE about this is that you can both learn AND actually USE it in your music!

This is just the beginning. Wait until we release Sonic Reality TV where we have "fly on the wall" style video documentary and interviews, behind the scenes on sample sessions and all sorts of related content.

[Squids]

I posted this in another forum but thought it might be good reading here...

The whole latency is an interesting issue that plagues all of these sample solutions to various degrees depending on how low a buffer setting you can have in your computer (based on your computer's speed). A good thing about Sonic Reality is that we sometimes support more than one sample format because our main thing is making the sounds, not the software. I like all of the software for drums out there too. I do like BFD and S2 myself and we're already supporting BFD with Neil Peart's kit for a start (and to be honest we need to see that sell like hotcakes first before we continue doing more and more because it is a lot of work to do alternate formats like that but we're all for it as long as there is a demand). I wouldn't be opposed to doing it in S2 either and I'm friends with the guys at Toontrack (in fact, right now both Ocean Way Drums and Drum Masters come with Toontrack's EZ Player Pro for free).

What I like about doing it in Kontakt the way we have for OWD and Drum Masters is that we have certain features of that engine to work with such as the ability to do higher sample rates which sometimes does make an audible difference (particularly with cymbals). Plus amp envelopes which also makes a big difference, particularly the release settings which acts like the decay "fade" and tightens/cleans things up a bit since it is being triggered and retriggered. Plus you have more things that can be adjustable per kit piece. So we choose Kontakt as the main format for our drums because of this programming flexibility. Plus Native Instruments (the company that makes Kontakt) allows third party companies to sell their sounds AS a plug-in by licensing their Kontakt Player which is what we do. Our "Ocean Way Drums Expandable Player" and "Infinite Player" are just Kontakt Players that are designed only to read our sounds. That's how NI does it. But it allows us to sell you the sounds without you having to go buy a $300+ sampler first! So it makes a lot of sense.

Anyway, I am sure a lot of developers would argue that they use expensive high end or vintage gear too. Some would be telling the truth and some might be stretching the truth and in reality it was recorded in their home studio... maybe they figure no one really knows the difference. I don't know. I will tell you that anyone who seems defensive about that is probably guilty! Haha. But, clearly there ARE others who use top equipment and studios to create sounds for S2 and BFD. So the differences aren't necessarily that. I think it could be a combination of the way each software engine sounds - which is a factor and a matter of taste - and the STYLE and APPROACH of the recording and programming.

For example, some developer's style is to record hundreds of velocities of the same position of a drum. But for me I'd rather have that split up so you can have multiple velocities on a variety of positions of the drum and then program it to respond to the position sensing of say a V-Drum or any e-Drum that has it (or a keyboard for me since I am mainly a keyboard player). So the articulations recorded from the kit can be a factor.

Then there's the temptation to use effects to get a great sound. There's nothing wrong with that but it's like a girlfriend with make up. When you take the make up off is she still pretty? Ours sound good without the make up so you can only imagine how good they'll sound with a little bit of eye liner and lipstick... okay, that's a silly analogy. I like to kid around. But in all seriousness, our approach is to refrain from using the effects and work on getting a sound that works naturally. THEN you can ALWAYS add in the effects to make it sound HUGE for Hard Rock, Metal, Classic Rock, Punk or whatever style you do. The problem with some of the kits that out there that "slam" right out of the box is that you can't dial it back or alter that. It's stuck in the sample and you'll never know what it would sound like without the dressing on top nor can you apply different dressing... and if you try to add compression on an already compressed to hell sound then good luck! It can quickly become a mush fest.

So, in a nutshell, I try to do more of a natural approach that sounds more like a real acoustic drum in a nice room with the gear we'd all like to have if it was only more affordable. This captures that source to be used with either internal effects (and now we're doing tons of presets that DO slam right out of the box for you... but you can dial it back and change it) or external plug-in effects if you have them. Our approach covers both the person who wants instant gratification as well as the person who wants to produce the sound exactly how they want depending on the musical context.

As you all know being drummers, the same Ludwig set can be used for Jazz or Led Zeppelin! It's all in how it is played, tuned, recorded and mixed.

But there's an art to that and we're really into it from that standpoint. If you watch the videos on www.sonicreality.net you'll see what I mean. We've taken it as our mission to capture the most desirable drum sounds (basically the same sounds I personally want to have) using the best possible gear and anything that would be so out of reach to most musicians so we can feel good about bringing them something special. Since we're all musicians too we love this stuff to use ourselves.

[Squids]

Someone in another forum brought up that some other library/plug-ins that have mainly processed sounds (so it slams out of the box) lack the dynamic range. Or at the very least seem to sound like only loud hits were struck. Drum Masters has many quiet and loud hits without being compressed at the sample stage. Here are some of the advantages of that (quoted post from another forum):

Well, actually part of this has to do with whether one has compressed it already too. For years I've avoided the temptation to do it at the sample level - at least when going for a natural acoustic sound. When we did a product called "Interactive Drum Kits" in 1997 it was really natural sounding but at the time some people went for the more processed sounds of Spectrasonics and other companies. Even the popular Bob Clearmountain library of drums was processed (and made more for drum replacement than to be PLAYED from midi).

So, you preserve more of the original dynamics if you don't hype it up with effects. Of course it's not IN YOUR FACE which many drummers and producers want. That's why we're making presets that ARE that way. We don't want anyone misunderstanding that it can sound that way... even that John Blackwell Tama kit can totally sound HARD ROCK with just a few things done in the preset... and I'll demonstrate that so it can be heard instead of just talked about in theory. It's interesting. But I would think that drummers of all people would want some diversity of production too. It doesn't hurt to know a bit about it.

For example, think about this for a second. A lot of rock drummers love compression whether they realize it or not. That is what gives drums PUNCH and makes them "sound louder" because it boosts the attack of the drum. It also squashes the dynamics though but if each hit is SUPPOSED to be loud in your music then that's no big deal (if you're doing pop, jazz, progressive or other styles then you'd want more dynamics). But, even if you're doing Hard Rock or Metal, there is a difference between the sound of a drum that is compressed already at the sample stage vs. compressed in real time with the built-in preset effects like we have in the new Drum Masters or even better with external effect plug-ins like T-Racks (and there is a sweet deal going on with T-Racks right now too : http://www.esoundz.com/details.php?Prod ... trvdrumkvr )

The difference is that if it is done at the sample stage then it is static. It will always sound that way and not only can you not "dial it back" or alter it but it doesn't change depending on what you hit. But, actually, when you run through a compressor in real time it DOES change depending on what you hit and in what combination! That's the key. So to REALLY get a Bonham sound, the same sound you love on the record, you'd want to compress in real time like they did (they didn't sample!). The compressor reacts to the overall playing and compresses differently if you play a cymbal and the snare at the same time than it would if just hitting a snare. It squeezes the sound and pumps in real time giving it a push that is very musical if used well.

Again, I realize to some people that might sound like a bunch of tech talk theory and not be something that can be grasped just from text. So, this is one of the things I am planning on doing a video of. I'll just play a pre-processed sound and then one that has effects done in real time and demonstrate the difference. You'll see it and hear it. So bear with me. I've got some cool stuff to show you with regard to what we've done. Plus some new releases coming like some old school jazz kits... we even sampled Mel Lewis, Joe Morello and Don Lemond's cymbals courtesy of Danny Gottlieb... all sorts of things coming. China splashes with rivets... we sample everything. We even sampled this: http://www.moleculesdrums.com/

[Reverend Rhythm]

Sorry about being so OT, but Cafe Con Leche is just one of the things I miss about South Florida. January and February are another two. We have one of those on-the-stove expresso makers, but it's better if it comes from a real cafe.

Appologies. Now back on topic.

[BERFAB]

For those making their way through Squids posts trying to sort this out in practical terms, I offer my 2 cents. I just recently got the Ocean Way Drums DL version, and I'm already looking to upgrade to the 'Silver' version. The sound is superb and sounds great right out of the box. The presets give you a great starting point, but no matter where you wind up on your FX settings, you're starting off with real sonic quality.

I use a lot of commercial MIDI files for drums, and any of the OWD kits translate general MIDI files (I haven't worked with the IMAP stuff yet)into very natural sounding rhythms. In fact, I now use OWD kits as replacement drums for my Kitcore plug. Once I get something I like in Kitcore, I'll just drag the MIDI file into my DAW and put OWD on the track. Perfection.

And on the subject of MIDI files, the included EZPlayer Pro is a virtual treasure trove of beats that you can use with ALL of your current drum software, not just the Sonic Reality stuff.

I also own almost all of the Drum Masters gear and have not, as yet, checked out the v. 1.5 upgrade. I am very anxious to do this because, I think, (and I don't think Squids would disagree with this) in it's current form (prior to 1.5) DM is a work in progress. They are not project ready out of the box, and I have not been able to get any of the kits to properly interpret any MIDI files (in either general or imap)without extensive (and time consuming) tweaking. So, despite all the bells and whistles that come with the free upgrade, the thing I'm most looking forward to are the new presets that get these kits sounding great with MIDI right out of the box.

Squids honestly copped to the fact that the included FX are not the same quality as much of the 3rd party gear that many of us have, but the approach I use with other drum programs is to use the presets as a guide for tweaking. If the verb on the snare sounds good in the kit, maybe I'll isolate that, eliminate the verb and then throw on CSR to make it sound great, etc. But very often, in the context of the overall sound, the included FX may be just right.

I hope this helps someone (anyone?) who's considering these. I'll chime in on the 1.5 version of DM once I get my hands on it. [I thought I read that some may already have betas that they are using. If that's the case, maybe someone can chime in on my assumptions above.]

Cheers
-B

[Squids]

Some in another forum had made a comment about the benefits of processing at the sample level and here was my response. I am copy pasting it here in our forum for your benefit in case what I wrote is interesting for you...

In response:

It isn't that one approach is always better than the other and actually while I tend to lean on the un-processed natural side approach more, interestingly enough the cases where I WOULD process at the sample stage would be specifically to get the sound of certain hardware units because even though modeled effects are getting better and better in software there's often some magic to the hardware (even down to specific units, let alone a model... ie. each Fairchild compressor seems to sound a bit different than the next!)... or some hardware just isn't even emulated in software yet.

The other subjective benefit of processing at the sample stage is if you wanted each drum to be punchy and NOT pump like compressors do. That sometimes makes it sound a little fake so one has to be careful with that (in fact, this is one of the reasons many people complain about hardware module drum brains - that pre-processed compressed "perfect" sound is good hit one at a time but then when you do rolls or dynamic playing it starts to sound unrealistic sometimes). But, it can be desirable as well in some cases. I'm not fully against it or anything. I just have a preference in general for the reasons I described.

That said, when it makes sense I am not opposed to including the processing. For example, we recently did a kit that will be coming out in the Drum Masters series where we tried to faithfully recreate as close as we could the infamous Phil Collins "In The Air Tonight" drum sound. We did it as authentically as one could imagine from an engineering standpoint. We had the original producer/engineer Hugh Padgham and we did it at Genesis studio with their stone room (which is as close to the Townhouse studio's stone room sound as we could get). The key element to that drum sound was this little mic called the "Ball & Biscuit" which is really a talk back mic for the live room. One day when doing a Peter Gabriel record with Steve Lilywhite, Hugh had listened to Phil from that talk back mic running through the SSL's Listen Mic Compressor (which was designed to heavily boost the sound coming from the live room in case someone was talking quietly from any corner of the room). But Phil was playing some sort of drum part at the time and it sounded HUGE and IMMENSE. So they recorded it that way for songs like Intruder and No Self Control which then became the sound engineering template for In the Air Tonight which later became the standard for a "gated reverb" drum sound (but one that in the 80's started to get cheesy and dated in some uses when done with digital reverbs... whereas the original compressed room sound to a certain extent is timeless and elusive).

So... my point is that in that case we recorded the Ball & Biscuit with that Listen Mic Compressor so we'd capture THAT sound. But... of course being the purist that I am we also captured the Ball & Biscuit in parallel NOT going through the compressor so in case you say... wanted to go to SSL's web site and download their FREE plug-in version of that Listen Mic Compressor you could run our upcoming Collins-style kit through that and adjust it to whatever you want! Maybe you want a little less of the effect or maybe you want a little MORE and go even further than any drummer hath gone before! Haha. But, anyway, when it is something unique like that I try to offer both especially if it is a deluxe library.

We're doing the same thing for the Ken Scott Collection where we have Bill Cobham, Terry Bozzio, Rod Morgenstein, Bob Siebenberg and Woody Woodmansey all recorded with the same gear as Ken recorded them back in the 70's with Bowie, Supertramp, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Missing Persons and Dixie Dregs. In that case you get some of the basic processing (EQ, gates etc.) so you have "that sound". At the same time you'll have flexibility to get your own unique sounds taking it further.

All of this may be new to you guys but if you're curious I think you'll find there is a wealth of material coming out from Sonic Reality that could be of interest - particularly to e-Drummers. Also, the good thing is that while we do our plug-ins mainly in Kontakt, we're not married to that format and if there's enough demand we're not opposed to doing sounds in BFD (already are) and S2. But for sure they will be coming out in Kontakt and with some really nice features for e-Drummers. In most cases unprocessed, in some cases with extra channels of processed mics and in rarer cases but still possible some versions that benefit from processing with the hardware and just sound a certain way out of the box without the flexible natural mic mixing. A little of everything but the key is that it is always thought about in terms of what compromises and sacrifices are done to gain in another area. It's never done to just "kick it up a notch" to outdo the next guy and just "sound louder" or sound impressive in a music store when there are a lot of other people making noise... I remember synth presets used to be that way. Totally unsable musically but when you walked up to it and said "Woaaaahhh" to your friend you bought it. Same thing with e-Drums I'm sure. But now people are wanting more realism in the context of music making. So, at Sonic Reality we're dedicated to that and maybe sacrifice not sounding always "Wooaaahhh" in every preset.

[ynot]

Squids,you ever thought about writing a BOOK? Just messin with ya,cause you do have the longest posts I've ever read here. Seriously though,I do enjoy reading them.Any ETA on the Drum Masters 1.5 or beta?